25 Runabout changes

[ryan_4z]

Tardboy, you guys are obviously not one of the lazy merc drivers. J. Micheal ran very well at the Nationals. I consider him to be proof that there was no need for a change. I do not see anyone race from the west coast though besides national events. I was refering more to the handful of guys from the mid-west who have been pushing this issue.

As far as the Hot Rod goes, the height was raised to 1" to hopefully make it more competitive.

Kevin, Thank you for posting Pater's test data. I also thought it was ridiculous that with all that information, the SORC did the one thing that will have unknown results. Really a slap in the face to Pater, who went out of his way to do all of this, and then told you how to slow him down.

[Tim Weber]

Joe,

I conragulate you on kicking my butt and everyone elses butt at Dayton. You took advantage of the rules to the limit and you were awsome!

Even more so, your last post stated what I have been trying to get across better than anyone. I thank you for posting your test data. It is basically the same thing that I have seen too when testing and playing with weight.

Thanks,

Tim

[17W]

Data what good is it????

What the commission SHOULD HAVE acted on:

December 22, 2005
Subject: 25SSR Testing

The following results are those from October ‘side by side’ testing using my nationals 25SSR carbon fiber boat set up versus a 20SSH set up to possess the same speed and acceleration as the 25SSR Dayton set up. The 20 set up would remain the same.

Run #1
25SSR (national’s set up - prop, motor and boat) at 405 lbs (like I ran at Dayton)
Speed: Same as 20SSH
Acceleration: Same as 20SSH
Comments: Less than ¼ boat length separated the two boats from the 40 to 62 mph
acceleration phase to the top end (made 4 runs to confirm).

Run #2
25SSR (same set up) at 415 lbs (like I ran at Grass Lake and Big Rapids)
Speed: 0.3-0.5 mph slower than 20SSH
Acceleration: 1 - 1 ½ boat lengths slower
Comments: Acceleration again from 40-62 mph. The 20 steadily pulled away (4 runs).

Run #3
25SSR (same set up) at 425 lbs
Speed: 0.7-0.8 mph slower
Acceleration: 2 ½ - 3 boat lengths slower
Comments: 25SSR more sluggish on low end acceleration --- had to work the boat
more to settle. Also, there was more of a lag time at speeds below 40 mph.
The 20 boat pulled away quite hard – would have been no competition in a race
(20 would have walked away).

Run #4
25 SSR (same set up) at 440 lbs
Speed: 1.1-1.3 mph slower
Acceleration: 4 to 4 ½ boat lengths slower per straightaway (40 to 62 mph)
Comments: Made 6 runs, all the same.
Note: Ran 2 extra runs to see acceleration below 40 mph -- when starting at 35
mph, the 20 boat would pull an immediate 3 to 4 boat lengths before the 25SSR
would begin to accelerate (the restricted motor would lag). The extra weight
does not allow the motor to get into it’s power range quickly. (During starts and
on tight courses drivers are often in the 35 mph range at points.)

Run #5
25SSR back at 405 lbs and height changed to 1-1/16” (from ¾”)
Speed: 2.7 to 3 mph slower
Acceleration: 8 to 10 boat lengths slower
Comments: Ran only 2 runs as it wasn’t even close
Note: I could not go all the way to 1-3/8” down as I would have had to cut the
transom. I speculate that going down the extra 5/16” would have slowed the boat
down another 1 mph + some acceleration.

Conclusion:
As you know I have done a lot of work and testing to get to the speed I am now. Remember, the fastest Merc 25XS rig has not been in the water since the disaster at the ’05 Winter Nationals.)

When I ran at Grass Lake and Big Rapids against Tommy Smith in his new 25XS Merc rig, we had the same top end. I did have a bit more acceleration out of the turns which could be attributed to his rig being a little overweight. He might have been faster than anyone I raced this year. When Tommy jumped the gun one heat and I could not catch him, and I would have not gotten by Larry Klein, in Big Rapids (with Vic Brinkman’s motor) had he not went way wide on the 3rd lap.

Noting this and the way I ran at Dayton, WEIGHT makes a tremendous difference with the restricted Yamato engine. Notice that just the 10 lb difference between the way I ran at Dayton and at Grass Lake/Big Rapids caused me to loose almost ½ mph and a couple boat lengths per straight. (Remember, that is 3 to 4 boat lengths per lap not counting the turns.) Had I ran at Dayton with the weight I did at the later races, the results could have been different.
 Going from 415 to 425 slowed the boat down another 1 ½ boat lengths per straight and the speed down by ¾ mph. In addition the motor became more sluggish at lower speeds and the boat was not as forgiving (I had to work it more).
 If the weight was brought to 425, I believe the Merc 25 would have the advantage in a side by side start.
 Going above 425 lbs will make it so the Yamato drivers will need a little luck (or better starts) to win.
 Going to 440 lbs will be even less attractive class for the Yamato drivers.

Remember we are not trying to make this another “C” class. This class is for a lighter weight individual who may like a bigger boat. This is a perfect class for the inexperienced runabout driver. The boat is easier to drive and is easier on the body.

Personally, I think the 415 lbs would be a good weight as the top end speeds are virtually the same and if the 25 runabout drivers would get on weight then acceleration would be the same also. And since they [Smith and Rhodes] are already very close, maybe others should put that extra effort into their 25 Merc equipment before changing the Yamatos.

Lowering the motor height to 1 3/8” is not an option -- it will kill the Yamato in this class and possibly the class itself.

This class has finally found its niche. It is growing – let’s not make a drastic change, chase away racers, and turn the 25SSR class back into an endangered species.

Thanks,
Joe Pater

Last time I checked any good "PSP"- Problem Solving Process requires DATA No Stock Outboard is not NASCAR but I still am scratching my head w/this decision. I for sure will not race this class w/Yamato.....Thanks for the efforts JOE!
When will we know whom has been selected to be on the parity committe?

[14-H]

Lazy Merc Guys

I don't know how many times I have to point this out: David Dewald's 25SSR record that could not be broken by Brinkman, Neal, Thomas, Austin, Broge, Rhodes or anyone else in this class now suddenly has been smashed by the Yamato. And not just by a little. The new records exceed Dewald's by over 2 miles per hour.

Please stop arguing that the Mercs can beat the Yamatos if they just try and there is no reason to change anything. This argument is either naive or contains just a hint of self-interest. Moreover, we have left the Hot Rod behind and it makes no sense not to deal with that engine now in order to avoid needing changes later, lest we hear all the griping about the future changes.

More importantly, I took a straw vote: the SORC overwhelmingly believes that adjustments need to be made to this class for parity reasons. Deciding on the particular change that needs to be made, has been the problem.

[sponsonhead]

Same as it ever was......

Hats off to Joe and Kevin for taking the time to do the testing, as well as posting the data here where we can all see it.

Aside from not understanding why the SORC didn't take info provided and use it as a baseline to implement any changes, a couple other questions come to mind:

• Why not make the 1/2" restrictor plate a ballot item?
  
• If a "Parity Committee" is being put into place, why make any decision whatsover without FIRST getting input from the committee? (oh, that's right: Nobody knows who the committee is.)

Somehow, the irony is not lost on me that on one hand, people are flipping out when there is "not enough test data" on a proposed new motor in one class; but then in an another class when COPIOUS amounts of detailed test data IS provided, it is seemingly ignored or discarded. It makes one wonder why they should even do the work.

WTF........

R-19

[Charlie Pater]

I don't know how many times I have to point this out: David Dewald's 25SSR record that could not be broken by Brinkman, Neal, Thomas, Austin, Broge, Rhodes or anyone else in this class now suddenly has been smashed by the Yamato.

I wonder how often they actually tried?

[race4kaos]

Exactly...

Seems like most are in agreement... the SORC needs to correct the message they are sending. Or DON'T EVER ASK FOR DATA AGAIN !!

Sponsonhead, the drivers don't get to vote on their class direction... what do you think this is, BSR !?!

Ed, how much have you tested your Merc (that has been top 5 a couple times recently)? Nothing compared to Joe. You aren't on Dewald's record pace even without your restrictor plate...

I hope the Parity Com. really wants parity...

[14-H]

I wonder how often they actually tried?

Tell that to Vic Brinkman.

[14-H]

**Ed, how much have you tested your Merc (that has been top 5 a couple times recently)? ***...

Very little. I just borrowed the stuff that was being provided to Brian Rhodes. Ed.

[mike ross]

The new rule had 2 changes. 1/2 restrictor and a parity commitee. Ed did do a straw vote and by an overwelming majority all the commisioners thought we still needed to massage this. I believe the pairity commitee will not be anyone who runs this class. Maybe when it is just a few people looking at the data Joe provided and also the data I provided last year they will come up with a fair why to make this work. We voted on several different ideas at the meeting of which 18 people(the commision) could not decide what was best. If you looked at commisioners who might know what a 25 was all about then there was only maybe 5 that I would have said really are in tune with this class. When its all washed out the rule could be 180 from where it sits now. All this input you guys are displaying on Hydroracer is acually good. If we had all you guys in the meeting then maybe the vote would be a different one. Post good ideas the parity committe can use and lets let this committee do its thing. For that matter you west coast 25 boys need to get to the lake and get us more data. Run it against the 20 hydro like Joe did so you don't have to tell us how fast your going. It to cold here to play or we would do it. Owe ya they wouldn't let me raise csr to 550 either. Biggggg Mike

[Charlie Pater]

Ed -

Consider these items:

1. It just seams to me that after taking out the restrictor, if they worked at, Merc drivers should be able to break Dewald's record. An open carb does provide for more power around corners - a significant benefit to get around the course quicker.

2. I understand that the newer 25 blocks may offer a little stronger motor.

3. How much boat innovation has there been in the 25ssr class? I doubt as much as in the more competitive classes. This point cannot be ignored.

Charlie

[53M]

Its not that cold ---- thats what wet suits are for --- Will be testing in the next two weeks (as soon as it hits 40---wish I could do it today but work is in the way)

Trying to get in touch with Brinkman to see if he wants to come and play too

Will see how the 1/2 does against the 9/16

Will tell you what I think about this rule then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JP

[42R Dad]

25 Runabout Changes

I don't know how many times I have to point this out: David Dewald's 25SSR record that could not be broken by Brinkman, Neal, Thomas, Austin, Broge, Rhodes or anyone else in this class now suddenly has been smashed by the Yamato. And not just by a little. The new records exceed Dewald's by over 2 miles per hour.

Please stop arguing that the Mercs can beat the Yamatos if they just try and there is no reason to change anything. This argument is either naive or contains just a hint of self-interest. Moreover, we have left the Hot Rod behind and it makes no sense not to deal with that engine now in order to avoid needing changes later, lest we hear all the griping about the future changes.

More importantly, I took a straw vote: the SORC overwhelmingly believes that adjustments need to be made to this class for parity reasons. Deciding on the particular change that needs to be made, has been the problem.

So what I am hearing is that this is to help the 25 Merc guys by slowing down the Yamatos. This will make it easier for the Merc to win races and set records by putting the Yamato behind them.

Jeff

[C Stock Racer]

So what I am hearing is that this is to help the 25 Merc guys by slowing down the Yamatos. This will make it easier for the Merc to win races and set records by putting the Yamato behind them.

Jeff

Thats what I hear. It's time for SORC to end this squable and quit entertaining those those want an advantage before they get on the water. George Scott

[ryan_4z]

I don't know how many times I have to point this out: David Dewald's 25SSR record that could not be broken by Brinkman, Neal, Thomas, Austin, Broge, Rhodes or anyone else in this class now suddenly has been smashed by the Yamato. And not just by a little. The new records exceed Dewald's by over 2 miles per hour.

Please stop arguing that the Mercs can beat the Yamatos if they just try and there is no reason to change anything. This argument is either naive or contains just a hint of self-interest. Moreover, we have left the Hot Rod behind and it makes no sense not to deal with that engine now in order to avoid needing changes later, lest we hear all the griping about the future changes.

More importantly, I took a straw vote: the SORC overwhelmingly believes that adjustments need to be made to this class for parity reasons. Deciding on the particular change that needs to be made, has been the problem.

First off, many of the names you mentioned haven't been involved in stock outboard racing in over a decade. I believe technology has evolved a little since then. As far as being naive or thinking only about your own self interest, why don't one of you guys build a new boat. How old is your Sorensen Ed? Are you saying that fresh wood, with a modern design is not worth speed. Because I tend to believe that you could easily pick up at least 1 MPH just in boat. The fact of the matter is that most of the guys running Mercs only come out once a year. It isn't a priority to you guys. Well the Yamato guys have been exhausting their resources to go faster. Building new boats, buying numerous props, some of them even putting 25 above C on their priority list.

I do agree that we need to think more about the Hot Rod. I think we all can agree that we don't want to keep this class around forever as a C2R, and since the Merc is now obviously not going to make its miraculous come back, we need to start thinking about where this class is going to be in 5 years. I for one would like to see it become BSR(as in a true B). If this is what we are going to do then it has to be in the plan to remove the Yamato some time within the next 2-3 years. We certainly cannot have 12 foot boats running in a 10 foot B class. I think that may be a big part of the issue right now. We have a class that is a blend of small runabouts and big runabouts. I'm not sure they belong on the race course together, even if they are compatible in speed.