25 Runabout changes

[14-H]

The SORC made some changes at the annual meeting to this class. As you may have heard, one was to change the height restriction for the Hot Rod from 1-3/8" to 1.0". Another was to place a 1/2" restrictor in the Y102 and Y302 engines (a change from the current 9/16" restrictor). A proposal to replace the restrictor back into the Mercury engines was rejected.

But most importantly, the SORC voted to establish a 25SSR parity committee which will have the power to change the technical rules in this class to achieve parity among the engines. Don't throw away your 9/16" restrictor just yet. This parity committee will meet this week prior to the BOD's meeting that takes place in two weeks to approve 2006 technical changes.

Stay tuned. Eddie the Chairman.

[raceboat61-S]

Great idea to form a parity committee! Who is on it? Are all three (Merc, Hot Rod, Yamato) competing interests represented? Are any of them 25SSR drivers? What power will they have to make changes (Recommending or execution) ? When will changes take effect? Can they reverse decisions that were just made in Ft Lauderdale? Can they revisit options that were rejected? Etc, Etc.
I don't think anybody said it but you did a heck of a job at the Stock meetings. You had about 30 thoroghbreds all trying to pull the cart in a different direction. You kept your cool during some heated discussions and maintained fair and considerable control of the meetings and the agenda. Thanks, Ed.

[ryan_4z]

The parity committee has the power to institute new rules. The rules made at the national meeting will take effect thirty days after the next Board fo Directors meeting, which is on Feb. 7th.

Here's the funny thing about the decision the Commission made. There was a guy, happens to be the current national champion in 25ssR, and he did alot of testing on how to slow down the Yamato. He tested weight, starting at the minimum, and increasing in 10 lbs. incriments, and he also tested propshaft depth. But with all this test data in front of them, including a recomendation of how to slow him down, the SORC made a rule that they have no idea what will come of it. It seems kind of silly to me. But that is all kind of minor because there are bigger issues underlying this whole class anyway.

[Tim Weber]

Ed,

Thanks for your level head on this issue.

My biggest gripe about this proposed rule is that it does nothing to address what I think is the biggest parity issue with the Yamatos. It's weight. I can't compete on the highest level when giving up 30-40 pounds.

There has been an argument that if we raise the weight to 430 for the Yamatos' most guys weigh that already. Make it 450 or 460 so all Yamato drivers have an equal chance. You can even make us run CSR weight of 475, I don't care. I have had to compete with A & B drivers in CSR rigs because of weight. I have had to compete with carbon fiber boats because of weight.

After the nationals, I could see the hand writing with the weight issuse and now I have a 25ssr only boat. Its 35 pounds lighter than the CSR boat.

Jerry Davids went on a crash diet and lost 30 pounds to compete better in the class. He built a special light weight boat. He is still not at the 405 pound limit.

We know that weight slows you down! Isn't the rule of thumb about 1 mile per 25 pounds? We know what weight does but we have no idea what a 1/2" restrictor will do. Doesn't a heavy boat accelerate slower? I always thought so.

Bottom line in my opinion is, if the weight is not addressed, the Yamato drivers will never have a fair playing field among themselves.

Remember too, we had 2 Mercs place in the top 5 at Dayton. Only Pater and Worm were faster. These two guys are two of the best ever!

Tim

[473M]

Tim
If we raise the 25SSR weight to the same as CSR what is the Point of having a diferent class? The A and B drivers that you speak of are the ones that this class was set up for not just the CSR guys who wanted a secound ride. I am a 175 lb A and B runabout driver who have been in a CSR and it was a terrible ride. so Yeah most guys are running at 430 lbs or 440 lbs but raising the weight to 460 lbs or 470 lbs would just make this C2R and that was not the point of making this class.
Brian 473M

[42R Dad]

25SSR Changes

Could someone explain why the SORC wants to slow down the 25 Yamato Runabouts? The 25 Merc and 25 (102,302)Yamato are very close in speed here on the West Coast. Slowing the Yamato would make the 25 Merc the easy winner.

Most guys look for ways to go faster, not slower. We (J. Michael and Dad) have worked hard to get the boat to run as it does with a 9/16 restrictor.
Replacing it with a smaller 1/2 restrictor forces us to start over or not!

Who benifits from this change? Will the 1/2 restrictor even work? Should the drivers have a vote? How many Yamato 25 Runabouts will this effect?

Jeff Kelly

[csh2z]

Don't quote me on this but I think the 25 Parity Committee will be in action on this issue immediately. John Runne 2-Z

[TardBoy]

What 25ssr class we did have out here west we can now consider dead.

[J.Michael]

This is my own opinion. I really don't see a reason to change any rules for 25ssr. I think if the merc guys work hard enough they can be just as fast as the yamato guys. Back in Dayton I ran a mercury. I think I was just as fast as anyone else there. My only problem was the 2nd turn. I could not make it through if mylife depended on it. Due to a boat that couldn't get through a tight turn. I had to run against this equipment all year. If I didn't get out front I was done. JW Meyers and Troy Holmburg spent all winter last year testing the merc and picked up a lot of speed. At the end of the year I ran in California against Paters stuff. I ran the yamato, but wanted to run the merc. I only had so much space on the trailer that I had to choose, so I chose the Yamato. I set a record, but a record that will be upped by the mercury.

If this rule sticks it will be a mistake. I think this will kill the 25ssr class here in region 10 and its only going to make the mercury a more dominating motor that we can't even purchase. I don't know about you guys, but I have spent way to much money to go fast and now go get my butt kicked!! I think I'll just run CSR where I don't have to worry about rule changes! (hopefully no rule changes)

[ryan_4z]

It must be very demotivating for the yamato drivers to go through all this work, only to have their progress reversed because of lazy Merc drivers. Maybe the Merc drivers would prefer that all the Yamato guys just don't run the class next year. Maybe that's not such a bad idea. If the Yamato guys were to boycott the class this year, well then good luck finding enough boats to race at weekend races.

It seems as though most are trying to keep in mind the "original intent" of bringing the yamato to this class. The problem though is that the class has been a failure in that aspect. The Mercury did not come back as was predicted. What we have instead is a light wieght CSR. No amount of parity is going to change that. The Mercury motor is dead. The sooner we all realize this, the sooner we can start thinking towards the future. I for one refuse to give any sort of validity to the idea that the Mercury 25xs is part of the future. It is a 20 something year old motor, that is being run by so few a number of drivers that it wouldn't even make a class at most local races.

[TardBoy]

Not to butt heads but I am not a lazy Merc. driver. Jw and myself did alot of R@D over the past winter to be able to race with J. Michael. As a matter of fact J. Michael took our Merc. set up to the nationals to race. J. Michael and I raced deck to deck all summer and had a great time doing it, but his experience won in the end. I guess I need to buy a 302 and do some CSR racing because 25ssr will be dead in region 10 now. J. Michael it was fun while it lasted, see ya in CSR.


TardBoy

[race4kaos]

Pater's data

What the commission SHOULD HAVE acted on:

December 22, 2005
Subject: 25SSR Testing

The following results are those from October ‘side by side’ testing using my nationals 25SSR carbon fiber boat set up versus a 20SSH set up to possess the same speed and acceleration as the 25SSR Dayton set up. The 20 set up would remain the same.

Run #1
25SSR (national’s set up - prop, motor and boat) at 405 lbs (like I ran at Dayton)
Speed: Same as 20SSH
Acceleration: Same as 20SSH
Comments: Less than ¼ boat length separated the two boats from the 40 to 62 mph
acceleration phase to the top end (made 4 runs to confirm).

Run #2
25SSR (same set up) at 415 lbs (like I ran at Grass Lake and Big Rapids)
Speed: 0.3-0.5 mph slower than 20SSH
Acceleration: 1 - 1 ½ boat lengths slower
Comments: Acceleration again from 40-62 mph. The 20 steadily pulled away (4 runs).

Run #3
25SSR (same set up) at 425 lbs
Speed: 0.7-0.8 mph slower
Acceleration: 2 ½ - 3 boat lengths slower
Comments: 25SSR more sluggish on low end acceleration --- had to work the boat
more to settle. Also, there was more of a lag time at speeds below 40 mph.
The 20 boat pulled away quite hard – would have been no competition in a race
(20 would have walked away).

Run #4
25 SSR (same set up) at 440 lbs
Speed: 1.1-1.3 mph slower
Acceleration: 4 to 4 ½ boat lengths slower per straightaway (40 to 62 mph)
Comments: Made 6 runs, all the same.
Note: Ran 2 extra runs to see acceleration below 40 mph -- when starting at 35
mph, the 20 boat would pull an immediate 3 to 4 boat lengths before the 25SSR
would begin to accelerate (the restricted motor would lag). The extra weight
does not allow the motor to get into it’s power range quickly. (During starts and
on tight courses drivers are often in the 35 mph range at points.)

Run #5
25SSR back at 405 lbs and height changed to 1-1/16” (from ¾”)
Speed: 2.7 to 3 mph slower
Acceleration: 8 to 10 boat lengths slower
Comments: Ran only 2 runs as it wasn’t even close
Note: I could not go all the way to 1-3/8” down as I would have had to cut the
transom. I speculate that going down the extra 5/16” would have slowed the boat
down another 1 mph + some acceleration.

Conclusion:
As you know I have done a lot of work and testing to get to the speed I am now. Remember, the fastest Merc 25XS rig has not been in the water since the disaster at the ’05 Winter Nationals.)

When I ran at Grass Lake and Big Rapids against Tommy Smith in his new 25XS Merc rig, we had the same top end. I did have a bit more acceleration out of the turns which could be attributed to his rig being a little overweight. He might have been faster than anyone I raced this year. When Tommy jumped the gun one heat and I could not catch him, and I would have not gotten by Larry Klein, in Big Rapids (with Vic Brinkman’s motor) had he not went way wide on the 3rd lap.

Noting this and the way I ran at Dayton, WEIGHT makes a tremendous difference with the restricted Yamato engine. Notice that just the 10 lb difference between the way I ran at Dayton and at Grass Lake/Big Rapids caused me to loose almost ½ mph and a couple boat lengths per straight. (Remember, that is 3 to 4 boat lengths per lap not counting the turns.) Had I ran at Dayton with the weight I did at the later races, the results could have been different.
 Going from 415 to 425 slowed the boat down another 1 ½ boat lengths per straight and the speed down by ¾ mph. In addition the motor became more sluggish at lower speeds and the boat was not as forgiving (I had to work it more).
 If the weight was brought to 425, I believe the Merc 25 would have the advantage in a side by side start.
 Going above 425 lbs will make it so the Yamato drivers will need a little luck (or better starts) to win.
 Going to 440 lbs will be even less attractive class for the Yamato drivers.

Remember we are not trying to make this another “C” class. This class is for a lighter weight individual who may like a bigger boat. This is a perfect class for the inexperienced runabout driver. The boat is easier to drive and is easier on the body.

Personally, I think the 415 lbs would be a good weight as the top end speeds are virtually the same and if the 25 runabout drivers would get on weight then acceleration would be the same also. And since they [Smith and Rhodes] are already very close, maybe others should put that extra effort into their 25 Merc equipment before changing the Yamatos.

Lowering the motor height to 1 3/8” is not an option -- it will kill the Yamato in this class and possibly the class itself.

This class has finally found its niche. It is growing – let’s not make a drastic change, chase away racers, and turn the 25SSR class back into an endangered species.

Thanks,
Joe Pater

[hagerl8m]

idea

Guys I know that most people don't remember this, but I recall that there was test data done with restrictors, I think at the previous national meeting this data was given to the SORC. If I get the time to go through all my stuff from the meeting or I go home, up north, I might be able to find it. This 25ssr issue seems to hit the hearts of many. But I think that people are taking this way to far. Wait and see how it is before you decide to give up on the class. A close friend of mine reminded me that racing isn't always about winning; it’s about the competition and the friends you family you create. I know that why I continue to race and will continue to be a part of this sport, in some shape or form.

[race4kaos]

Instead...

... they pulled something out of a hat and reacted to it. (I heard it was Ed that chose to re-visit the topic one it had already been put to rest without any changes implemented. Maybe I'm wrong.)

Everyone that was not at the meeting can't complain too much (me included). However, they DID make the Parity Committee that can correct this. Someone should list that team publicly and all the 25 drivers should voice your facts/DATA to them.

Under this new rule, just wait and see how far out in front the new Tommy Smith or the Brian Rhodes Merc outfits will be. They are faster than any other Merc outfits Pater raced last year.

Pater put his 25SSR rig together in a few months last year. With the current rule change, he feels he can dust off his old Merc and have an even bigger advantage over the field next year with some more hard work.

Either way, something should be decided by the Winter Nationals - and it should stick for the season.

Is the intent to let the Merc win in it's original class, or to keep all the entries that rejuvenated the class to National status in recent years?

(Maybe the 1/2" restrictor would be ok if the Merc's had to restrict again... and then the HR would have a better chance, Ed. I'm surprised you didn't pursue that.)

[hagerl8m]

nice

(Maybe the 1/2" restrictor would be ok if the Merc's had to restrict again... and then the HR would have a better chance, Ed. I'm surprised you didn't pursue that.)

Actually I think that’s what the plan is, don't quote me on this, but if we don't slow down both motors, where are we going to put the "True B Motor"? Or are we going to add anther class the many we already spread or thin amount of drivers into. Like Ed said before putting current drivers into more classes isn't growth, new drivers are growing.

Why does OPC racing work, we put on a show, you know that Kevin, maybe less classes with more competition is the future.

When are you heading up for stag weekend?

Oh yeah, back to class for me, stupid library trip, books smell funny