Truly Stock

[runabout333]

Are Sidewinder engines blueprinted at the manufacturing location?

[deeougee]

They are CNC machined, so tolerances are very tight. I like that the company controls engine spec changes not APBA. This way we don't have a repeat like the Yamato classes.

[runabout333]

They are CNC machined, so tolerances are very tight. I like that the company controls engine spec changes not APBA. This way we don't have a repeat like the Yamato classes.

Then, I am assuming that the SORC has , at one time,allowed the blue printing of the Yamato engines?

[deeougee]

Yes they did because the tolerances aren't tight on the Yamato in the tech manual and people were bringing motors up to the questionable specs which were there to just cover the lack of tight quality control on engine production. So after awhile of arguing with tech inspectors about your engine part specs the SORC just decided to allow "blue printing", at least that's the way I see it. The worst thing that was allowed on the Yamato's was port chamfering under the guise of "ring snagging" which is a crock! I never had an engine snag a ring ever! Overbored or not, ported or not. Here's what port chamfering really does, it increases and smooths out airflow through the port and can change port timing. That's the simple answer. I know exactly where it came from and won't discuss it here. Suffice to say I'm dead set against it! There's no measurement for it just the inspectors interpretation. So you do what you think you can get away with. Port chamfering is desirable for a mod motor but has no place in stock!

[DeanFHobart]

Then, I am assuming that the SORC has , at one time,allowed the blue printing of the Yamato engines?

Yes, that is correct.

[deeougee]

Here I'll tell you a story about "stock outboard racing". This is going back to about 1977 or there about. Two friends of mine Brian Lancaster and the late Larry Solski started stock outboard racing. Brian raced C & D stock & E Mod, Larry started in B stock (merc 20h). Well these guys are smart, competitive and do not like to lose! They got there asses handed to them the first year, dead last at practically every race. Well just so happened Bud Parker noticed these two characters and he had a soft spot for Canadian's. Next thing you know they were going over to Bud's shop in Detroit about 3 times a week to do their engine building apprenticeship. Needless to say from that point on they didn't finish last anymore! Brian built a lot of C, D stock merc's and E Mod motors for competitors that won a lot of APBA Nationals. Many of the old timers would remember Brian for sure. Larry brought the first Y80 into Canada. He ended up being the Yamato distributor for Canada, he brought in 14 Y80's and 1 102. He told me it was nite and day compared to the 20h. He made the engine change after he flipped and blew the 20h rods through the block. The Y80 ran briefly with the 20h before they got their own class 20SSH. He told me all the good 20h stuff was used up and there was nothing left for him. He loved the Yamato. Him and his brother drag raced bikes and raced Karts competitively before the hydros. They won many races and championships in both sports before hydros. So moral to the story there's nothing "stock" about stock outboard racing.

[runabout333]

Back in the day then,, can I make the same assumption this happened to the Mercury 25XS, the 44XS and the OMC A?
And now to the AX Mercury engine?

[deeougee]

Absolutely, 2 stroke engine theory and principles apply to all 2 strokes, new and old.

[runabout333]

I gather then,,, there are racing people that have learned how to take them apart and put them back together better than the factory
techs. What is gained is a few mph in every allowed class. With the exception of prop choice and boat set-up all engines should be equal.
Did the majority of the racing population spend the needed money to gain that "blue printed" status? Or,, has that been the decline in
Stock Outboard racing? To make a long story short,, I am moving to Southwest Florida,,, 67 years young,, am considering racing ONE
class again. I went to the Lakeland race in 2016 and there appears to be only a very limited number of stock classes.
Major decisions on my mind.

[DeanFHobart]

Back in the day then,, can I make the same assumption this happened to the Mercury 25XS, the 44XS and the OMC A?
And now to the AX Mercury engine?

Back in 1986 when the OMC A and the "Short Tower" 25 XS came into Stock racing my son in ASH and me in 25SXH set 4 records. In A he set the Kilo, 1-1/4 and 1-2/3 records. And myself the 1-2/3 record. All with completely stock motors as received. We didn't even change spark plugs. My record is still in the record book.

[deeougee]

Those who want to go fast will. You can take any engine and build it into a winner if you have the knowledge. A decision to race a class depends on what your goals are? Do you want to run up front or go out for a boat ride and have fun? Do you like to build engines? Do you have the knowledge to build, tune and maintain engines? Right now I steer people away from 20 and C hydro unless they are serious about running up front. It takes a serious commitment. I suspect thats why a lot of people have moved into 300 SSH, even veteran drivers. In my opinion the best classes for everyone are A (15SW), B (20SW) and 300 SSH (Y321). These classes give everyone an equal shot at winning and have the least amount of engine maintenance. You can concentrate on setup and testing propellers with A & B and in the case of 300 SSH they run 2 blade props that are drawn before the start of heat racing.

[Ram4x4]

Don't discount time. Someone who has been running a particular class for many years is logically going to have an advantage over someone just starting out. Racing, even a 'stock' class, costs money. Like anything else, chances are, the more you spend, the better your chances of doing well. That's just how it works. I've heard tell on here that there are some folks who will buy 3-4 of the same engine, test them, keep the best one and sell the others. And that's just the beginning of their quest to make them faster.

300SSH is the most 'stock' of any class, yet if you watch them race, there are some who consistently run away from everyone else, so the engine alone isn't the answer as to why someone is a top runner. Weight is a big issue, boat and its set up too and driver skill.

I guess the bottom line is, if you are serious about being a top runner, expect to spend money and time. About the only way someone new is going to become competitive quickly is if they happen onto someone selling a top running boat and is willing to teach the new guy about the set up and so on.

My personal opinion is that the journey from new guy to top runner is part of the fun and excitement. Anyone coming into the sport and expecting to become champion in the first few years has unreasonable expectations.

[runabout333]

Thanks to all for the input. At this point,, I should get in touch with Charlie Blackwood or Tom Nuccio to see exactly what classes in APBA
that are ran in Southern Florida.

[daveracerdsh]

The Tohatsu D motor that Alex Polikopf sells is 100% stock internally..aside from welding the crank journals. I spent a fair amount of money on my first D motor having it gone thru so to speak....then purchased a Tohatsu D motor that had not even been re ringed yet.....the thing was untouched inside, and it was just as fast as first motor. I know it's a fair amount of money, but if you want a truly stock motor, get a Tohatsu D. And, if you need parts, Alex is the best guy I know getting you stuff you need.....or you can go to a local Nissan or Tohatsu dealer and get stuff off the shelf. Dave

[Big Don]

Dave, has something changed? I thought Alex told us in LA he was done? If that is not accurate any longer we need to know. I told someone a month ago to contact Darren.

[ram95]

Great discussion. Since we are looking back in time here and I am done mowing the grass I'm going to toss in my 3 cents. Back in the 50's that I recall we just had Outboard racing, using motors which were produced with tiller handles for the pleasure boater crowd... you know, the proud owners of a 16' foot Thompson with a 25 Big-Twin who were usually photo'd wearing a Captains hat. Then along comes Ollie and Carl and Martin and Scott with their tiller handles. Of course in the back of the garage were the Alky brothers who were'nt about to get beat by some nerd with a captains hat. The Alky dudes were the original Mod Committee.., and they were a frightening bunch. Noisey..big time, crazy-fast, alky-BURNERS! Crap... I had a Triumph Bonneville with 12 to 1 pistons and those guys scared me. So being a relative chicken-S--t and having been to Merc school (1959) I opted for a safer, more familiar looking 55H and a Sid. What's this got to do with Stock? Simple. The 55H looked just like all the 4 cyl mercs my more-timid friends owned, but I could go faster. That to me is what Stock means. A motor you can just go out and buy and go racing, even if it isn't a motor Mom has on her canoe. So, everything was cool back in 1956 with all the KG mercs... then along comes Champion with the Hot Rod.... whoa... where's the tiller handle? There were'nt one. Uh Oh... and it was doing damage to KAMINCs 20H. This is when Stock started to un-ravel. Carls skunk-works rolls out the Toilet-Bowl which runs on gas but makes terrific noise... has no tiller handle.., and is really fast. With that motor, you didn't need to run an Alky class to make a helluva racket and go like stink. Here comes da rule book and the Mfg spec sheets. And the arguments over what Stock means began in earnest. Blueprinting as we know it today, was a term synonymous with MODIFIED back then. Back then, STOCK to most normal folks meant the motor you bought out of the box from your local dealer. Well.., Carl and Ollie (mostly Carl) made some factory MODS to their H motors which made them a tad faster than your tiller handle version. And, the rule book deemed it stock. But, even then the Mfg spec sheet and relatively crude production tolerances meant that the motor you bought out of the box might not be as good as the one your competition bought. Enter blueprinting, and moans and groans. And somewhere along the long road the Alky folks decided they had little use for most spec sheets and they went their own way and put the alcohol to other uses after a day of crazy fast fun, breakdowns, blown engines, and heli-arc repairs. The Stockers meanwhile had more wholesome fun drying out their equipment, changing coils, mixing gas and outboard oil, and enjoying life in the fastlane with less stress. Still, they were bugged by those ner-do-wells who seemed faster than everyone else because maybe...just maybe... they had been blueprinting their engines. Or instead of blueprinting, they'd buy 4 or 5 and use the one that came out of the box with the optimum dimensions...as long as their checkbook could handle that many.

So, we move on up into the 80's and 90's and the Mfg's are all selling motors which RESEMBLE the ones found in the marina, but which are definitely meant for racing under the Stock banner. And, STOCK they were, complete with the usual Mfg production tolerances which were quickly inserted into the Stock rulebook as being allowable modifications... ooops... did I say the M word? No.. I said Blueprinting, which in itself is synonymous with Checkwriting.

Now comes Sidewinder, a motor that is made to extremely tight tolerances thanks to huge advances in the machine-tool industry. Nice to see. And, it's truly the only STOCK engine in the stock outboard category... with the exception of the RAM50 of course.

If you've read this whole novel... email me your address and I'll send you B&M baked beans decal. Time to fire up the grill.

Alex

[dwhitford]

You got some of the chronologic history slightly wrong, Alex, but basically you nailed it! At least conceptually!