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**GrandpaRacer** · 12-17-2016, 08:14 PM

Racing little wooden boats with tiny outboard motors is a grass roots kind of sport. It is similar to GoKart racing in that regard or your local dirt bike track. It is a hobby just like these others are. Classes that we race will be determine to a first order by what we have available that is cheap enough for the average guys to race. There never has been any serious money available from sponsors in any of these sports at this level. The general public views our little boats just like they view go karts, just toys for big kids or Dads and their kids. They have little or no interest. At Seafair in Seattle we have our annual H1 race where big fast impressive boats race. They are moving bill boards for advertisers and draw big crowds because everything about them is over the top. But when you go to the show and talk to the people, half of them are there because the Blue Angels perform at half time! Even at that level I doubt anyone is getting rich at H1 racing. So we should choose our class structure around what is best for our wierd little hobby and for our fellow racers.
John Adams

**61-W** · 12-18-2016, 08:19 AM

I agree with GrandpaRacer also. Here in the Midwest I believe we have the same thing going on. I constantly ask none racing friends as well as my MANY co-workers about racing and their interests. ALL tell me boat racing ,

1. Costs too much.
2. Takes too much work.
3. They have other things to spend their time on the weekend doing.

In that order. We are a hobby sport and that is all it will ever be. Start catering to the members ideas!

This is my opinion!
Jeff Scheffler

**Ram4x4** · 12-18-2016, 08:37 AM

First things I'd ask are "why do we want to restructure?" What are the goals? What about the current structure is a detractor to the sport?

**stockc** · 12-18-2016, 10:04 AM

Novice C class could spread across the nation. The impact it has had in R10 is incredible actually. Countless new racers have participated, but equally impressive is that a solid percentage of those are now full time racers. It is not uncommon for us now to have well over 20 boats in Yamato classes.

Another aspect of equal value of attracting new racers, is the retention of current racers who for many valid reasons may not be able to become ultra competitive. Racers want to dice it out and have a chance to win regardless of their experience, equipment or abilities. I think this component needs to be expanded upon in R10 regarding who qualifies to participate. My concern is that if we routinely field elimination heats, how long will the racers who are presently unable to compete at the top level continue writing checks?

Most other forms of racing have "classes" that take into consideration experience and skill sets etc. Therefore, every participant an opportunity to have a real racing experience. Whether it is banging bars, fenders or sponsons, that's what sparks the adrenaline and keeps us coming back for more.

Admittedly, low participation in this sport makes the concept difficult. But in classes/clubs where boat counts are high I think implementing a novice class would have great benefit. Currently, we likely have enough boats to run Novice 20ssh. No spec or drawing for props, run your own stuff. The race day should stay about the same length running Novice opposed to elims.

Ken

2012 Novice C Graduate, 1-NC, that's what K-Lew tells me anyway (-:

**deeougee** · 12-18-2016, 03:14 PM

Lets talk about the class history structure first. All Mercury engines.
J 7.5ci
A 15ci
B 20ci
C 30ci
D 40ci

20SSH was added later when the Y80 blew the doors off of the 20h. 25SSH came into play with the 25 ci merc. The Y80 opened the door for the convoluted class mess we currently have. The Y80 is why 20ssh was started and why it exists now. If the Y80 becomes an afterthought then why would we continue to have the class? Restricting a 25ci motor makes no sense when there are no 20 ci engine to run against! Here are some of my questions. Why are we restricting motors to run slower? Example the SW 20. It is being run at 1 3/8" in B, 1" in 20 and 1/2" in 25 which is against the 25 merc. All the intermixing of engines into various classes has made it really difficult to run a cost efficient program as a participant and a race organizer. Right now if I want to run 4 heats in a day I have to run 2 different motors or classes 1 motor with a restrictor (20 and C). I only run 1 class. I'm not interested in spending money on another boat, engine, props etc. I would rather focus on 1 hydro and 1 runabout and make them really fast instead of spreading the resources. With less classes and more heats the programs would move faster and be more efficient and be easier to explain to people not directly involved in the sport. Think of how the Merc Challenge Series was run? Can't get anymore clear and concise. There was money involved back then also.

Here's the class structure I would like to see. Heat format to be determined.
J Mercury
A 15SW
AX??? Mercury 15 (I'm up in the air about this class)
B 20SW (1/2" 400lbs)
C Yamato 321
D Tohatsu
300 SSH

Current production motors only and it follows the ci displacement of the motor, everything else to mod. I currently run the Y80, one engine has been to the national finals 12 times winning a couple. However, I think it's time to move on!!! How about possibly adding T750 and T850 to the program like the Canadians do? These are stock engine sit down V-bottom rides. It's time to talk about other ideas for moving the sport along to become more exciting and efficient. Time and money are valuable commodities these days. Our current class/engine structure is really a turnoff for me personally. Try explaining it to someone who is possibly interested in participating! It's not easy! First thing someone asks when I'm testing, at a gas station, etc. How fast is your boat? 65-70 mph on a 10' boat. Second question, what size engine? 20hp. Reaction "WOW!" New ideas and new solutions are needed moving into the future. I see someone referenced H1 earlier. The Unlimited Class is nothing more than a spectacle now. It is no longer considered a professional class. ACHA puts on a way better show with a lot more money involved! Valleyfield alone puts up $250000 for a purse. There is not one unlimited race that comes close these days. How many of the drivers and crew are paid these days? That sound is crickets my friends. I've been involved with unlimiteds for almost 40 years now. The reason they don't move forward is because the owners won't listen to the paying customer as to the product they want to see. Again time and money very valuable these days. We had better think long and hard about what we want our future to be.

**deeougee** · 12-18-2016, 03:52 PM

So what's working? Lets talk about 300SSH. Numbers are growing in leaps and bounds. Was suppose to be a novice driver class but was quickly inundated with veteran drivers. Why??? These people need to be asked why. These are people who regularly participate in 20 and C. Is it because you don't have to blueprint the engine? Spend some time and money on testing? Why? In region 6 there were 9 different winners in 10 races including a rookie who won with the club boat. Can't remember if it was this past year or 2015. It's something that isn't broke so it doesn't need fixing but why are people going to the class versus 20 and C? Could this class be affecting the 20 and C numbers of registered racers?

The SW 20. To me and a lot of other people this is an exciting engine. It's a true racing engine with up to date technology and design. Simplicity at its best. Pyramid reed blocks versus finger reeds (50's technology) of the yamato 102, 302 and 321 (the primary reason why I run the Y80 pyramid reed blocks). Wonderful profile on the gearfoot, very driver friendly. Could be carbed up some more to a 40mm but that's ok. This is why the Y80 can't compete against the SW20 (34mm flatslide carb). The 28mm butterfly carb on the 80 is very restrictive and it's not flatslide either. The 20 ci engines convert to 327 cc and the formula says 40mm carb should be the match. Check out AAEN's carb tuning book for carb flow comparison between round slide and flat slide of the same size. There is no comparison in the numbers, flatslide all the way. My Yamaha Enticer 250 is very happy with a 38mm Mikuni TMS flatslide, the numbers don't lie. Need a winter racing fix? Vintage sled racing.

The worse thing we ever allowed into stock outboard racing? Port Chamfering. No definitive measurement for it and I know where it came from. What ever you can get away with in inspection. What it does is change port timing and flow. Some people would like you to believe it prevents rings from snagging ports. Yes it does that, but this is what it really does. It really helps on the exhaust side flow numbers which increases HP. There's a really technical answer for it but I'm not going to get into that.

**ryan_4z** · 12-18-2016, 10:45 PM

Hey Pav,

You mentioned twice on the other thread a proposal. Has someone actually suggested eliminating 20ssH outside my maniacal rantings? They must be crazier than me!

**ryan_4z** · 12-18-2016, 11:11 PM

John,

You make a great point about the unlimited races. The boats are the least interesting thing about the event. This is key and it illuminates why and how our outboards could have incredible marketing potential. In order to attract people to the races, they need to be events that are larger than just the races themselves. On the east coast our prime example is Lock Haven. Every year hundreds of people watch the races while hundreds more enjoy carnival rides, food, music, beer tents. The race is the perfect reason to have a party. Once you create this fair/festival atmosphere it can quickly become something that the whole town gets into. It becomes and event that people want to go to. Not just a boring boat race. Once you have people the only question is how many and you can start selling ad space. Radio and television promotion, posters, billboards, signage, displays...any way you can advertise your event you can advertise your sponsor. The more you advertise, and the bigger your market, the more people you will get. The more people you get the more money you get. The more money you get the more racing you can do with you weird little group of racing friends.

Selling is all about knowing your product and knowing your market. If you are trying to sell to a new racer your product is boat racing. To a live spectator your product is a good time. It is something to do on the weekend. That will be a much easier sell if we have something more than just the race.

Now, I don't see our sport making anybody rich. I think we could get enough money in the sport to make it a little more affordable for all, though. It would be cool if, when people ask, 'do you win money?' the answer was, 'yeah, a little.' I think we could get us all some tow money. See, the other dirty trick about selling is, you don't have to have a product people need, you don't have to have a product they even want. You only have to package it in a way that gets them to give you their money.

**reed28n** · 12-19-2016, 05:45 AM

With all due respect, stock outboard racers don't have the stomach for telling anyone no. The SORC is not a sanctioning body it is a polling body and we react to a very small number without regard for the greater good. Everyone with any boat or willing to threaten they will quit will get equal time. You should blow up this thread - because real class structure beneficial change will only help APBA have a unifed message, correctly inform new racers, make races manageable on a local level and coordinate the categories - and it wont happen. The BOD needs to take the lead on this and prevent our categories from going off in different directions. Every elected official in APBA needs to be able to say NO - risk upsetting a current member to forge a path for the future.

**pat** · 12-19-2016, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by GrandpaRacer View Post

Racing little wooden boats with tiny outboard motors is a grass roots kind of sport. It is similar to GoKart racing in that regard or your local dirt bike track. It is a hobby just like these others are. Classes that we race will be determine to a first order by what we have available that is cheap enough for the average guys to race. There never has been any serious money available from sponsors in any of these sports at this level. The general public views our little boats just like they view go karts, just toys for big kids or Dads and their kids. They have little or no interest. At Seafair in Seattle we have our annual H1 race where big fast impressive boats race. They are moving bill boards for advertisers and draw big crowds because everything about them is over the top. But when you go to the show and talk to the people, half of them are there because the Blue Angels perform at half time! Even at that level I doubt anyone is getting rich at H1 racing. So we should choose our class structure around what is best for our wierd little hobby and for our fellow racers.
John Adams

Our racing team has run stock outboard (ASR, ASH, 20SSH, CSH &CSR) and T750 and SST 60 over the years. It's the same today as it was 30 years ago...there is no sponsorship interest because there is no public interest and I agree it is just another expensive hobby with a dedicated following that unfortunately has been losing membership at a steady pace for decades. There are some similarities to karting (we now race 4 cycle) but there are more differences than similarities. You can buy a purpose-built Briggs & Stratton L206 4-stroke racing engine (factory new) for $800.00 and race that same engine in Novice, Junior and Senior divisions by simply changing the carb slide and the power pack (rpm limiter). Add a chassis for another $3500 and you're on the track for the price of a SW outboard. We have 10 trophy races per season at the club level at our local track and that doesn't include any national event races. There is one very important difference between boat racing and kart racing and that is there are potential NASCAR, Indy and F1 career opportunities for the very best in the sport. Almost every driver in these elite series had an initial start in kart racing with some exceptions. For that fact alone there are at least 10 times more kart racers than boat racers on any continent. As far as attracting new members to kart racing? Go kart rentals take care of that issue quite nicely. I'm not suggesting that karting or boat racing is better than the other but the advantages of one versus the other are not the same. Unless boat racing can access new purpose built racing engines and parts at an affordable price (without the need to blueprint) it is going to continue to have these discussions year after year without end.

Kants Racing Team

**dover xs** · 12-19-2016, 06:45 PM

Pat; an excellent summary of the karting world and opportunities. I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment.

I am sort of a new old guy. I raced A,B, and 25ss back in the early 70's. As a lover of small engine technology and motorsports I left for motorcycling and didn't look back until I needed a safer (softer) sport. In motorcycling we have the pocketbikes where many have begun their quest like Valentino Rossi. In Trials, for example, I can pay an equivalent entry fee and ride almost all day long. Even in the roadracing trackday world, I can for 150-$250 a day, ride the great roadcourses of the world with sessions every hour or so all day long. For a different type of riding one can ride the Grits which is a flat out road run/race on 50cc bikes (Aprilia, Derbi, Honda, Yamaha, others; also many cheat w/big bore kits) in NE Georgia mountains. Speeds of these bikes near 80+mph on the straights.

So what can we do. First, I think the Big Times will never arrive. With that in mind and accepting the fact that it will always be a hobby for the majority let's get it in a form that can tolerate and function as racers come and go. Does that mean a simplified class structure, more heats, you tell me. What about OSY 400. Is that not a route to worldwide competition, is it. Why not an A class, OSY400, and D with the Tohatsu.

Doing motorcycle trackdays it is generally broken down into Novice, Intermediate, and Expert. This way the skill levels are generally matched. With fewer classes we have hopefully more boats. Start with Novice elimination heats. Then take the top so many and scatter them into the Intermediate elimination heats. Then take the top so many from the Intermediate heats and scatter them into the expert elimination heats. Then we get to the Expert final heats. For those Novices and Intermediates that have their act together the opportunity for a high heat count is quite high. Just my thoughts.

Steve

**jsilvestri** · 12-20-2016, 08:41 AM

This is my one and only take, and I can't believe I've gotten sucked in. Everyone cool their jets. Whether it be trying to cool the new 321 or 302 or wanting to fix APBA and stock outboard racing.

I've raced the 302 in CSR and CSH since 1999 and yes, when I first started racing the class we, my father and I, had cooling problems on the hydro. Over the course of the next couple of years we figured out how to reroute the discharge tubes as well as the size of the tubes and no longer have cooling problems. Study the water jacket in the block and you'll figure it out! If you are overheating in CSH with a 302 you don't have the discharge correct. In 20SSH, I couldn't get over 5/8 below the bottom without having cooling issues. But, who says you have to run at 1/2" to be fast?????????????? I have no experience with the 321 so I have no solutions for it other than SLOW DOWN and DO YOUR HOMEWORK! THIS IS RACING NOT CODDLING!!!

Now, as far as Stock Outboard and APBA, no one says a club can't do as they see fit. In fact, many clubs over the years have run select classes along with three heats of racing, or conce heats, etc... Who says a club can't run J, A, B, C, D all three heats, with a conce??????????????? Don't tell me money to pay for the race. If you only run those classes and offer more water time then charge more for entry fee. You've also created a nice sellable package for a few local sponsors to help defer the cost of the race. Heck, run a special event race like we did at Akron a few years ago to secure sponsorship. It can be done and it can be tailored to each region for the liking of each club. It would be foolish for APBA to eliminate ANY class when each region and club can taylor the schedule to suit them. Really, these conversations should be aimed at each persons individual club and these discussions should be taking place at Club mtgs! APBA and the SORC are in place to get us good insurance, which they have, and to help establish affordable available equipment that offers some sort of level playing field, which they have! Its the club's responsibility to take it from there create a schedule and format that works for them and their members!

If you want to WIN, get back in the garage or basement and get to work because those who run out front are doing just that! Its not easy but if it were then everyone would be doing it with and have a stack of trophies!

**Brian10s** · 12-20-2016, 09:22 AM

Good points Joe! I will give this my 2 cents as will.

As for the "marketable" series - I think that has been done already. Was called the Merc Challenge and is currently called the USTS. Instead of changing the Stock classes to make it marketable for a sponsor, set up a series and the racers will come.

As for comparing boat racing to karts, bikes or cars, there is always one major difference. Everything else has a purpose built track where boats are a traveling circus that hit town for one to two weekends every year.

Water time - Boat time costs money. Your average race cost around $5k to put on (some more some less depending on ambulance fees, etc). So at $2500 per day, that is 72 entries at $35 per entry. At most sites, you need to schedule more than just Stock classes to ensure you get enough entries to pay the bills. But if you want more heats with less classes, have your club limit the schedule and charge more in entry fees. The downside to that is you never know who or how many boats will actually show up at any given weekend.
Also, we have tried to give a 3rd heat for free at several of our races as a thank you and so that people will get more water time. 80% of drivers have b****ed about it and said give it to the J's. They didn't want 3 more laps. And how has that 3 days over 2 worked out? Drivers already spend a ton of cash getting to the site, you would think a 3rd day is a nobrainer - not so fast. At most races the 3rd day race has 1/2 to 2/3's the entries the regular races have.

Class reduction - you can not look at a reduction of classes in a vacuum of Categories. 95% of all sanctions have more than two categories on it (J and other). Very few clubs schedule only Stock or Mod. They majority schedule both and the reason is from a club stand point, you need every body and entry you can get. Unless you can magically make every racer in the US buy into one of 4 classes for 2017, all this is just keyboard talk.

Finally - for those who local racers who are worried about you class or engine - don't be. If the Yamato 80 was gone tomorrow, a local club could create a local class called Yam80 and you could run this weekend. It would not be a National class and not subject to High Point awards but it would be on the schedule as long as there are drivers who want to run it.

**pat** · 12-20-2016, 10:32 AM

Regarding race participation and costs to both the sponsoring club and competitors. Agreed that boat racing is a travelling circus where in most cases travel is a factor. There was nothing more frustrating (when we ran stock outboard) than being disqualified for jumping the gun...a rule that still prevails. There is no other motor sport that I can think of (other than drag racing) that has such a strict approach to a start. Imagine, a guy travelling 500 miles to a race and for a 1/2 second too early on the start he is sent packing. Not only is it frustrating but down-right demoralizing. I know, I know, its his own fault for jumping the gun but with today's conditions wouldn't it be far better to penalize with points (placing) rather than disqualification? After all, it's only for a trophy and maybe he'll be back next year.

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