Tabor City vs. Wimps (Save Local Boat Racing!!!)

[ryan_4z]

Wimpy boat racers abound these days, and they all seem to have an agenda to make boat racing easier so they don't have to work so hard. Region 4's most precious site has been under attack recently. I wanted all to know so they may have an opportunity to speak out. Who knows, maybe I am in the minority, but this discussion must happen in the open forum, not behind closed doors.

Apparently, the Stock commission is considering revoking the sanction for the 2017 Winter Nats in Tabor City, NC. As far as I know, Tabor City is a great race site and there have never been issues with it before being a Mod Winter Nats site. Racers I speak to love racing there, even if the course can be challenging. But then, racers I speak to are generally up for a challenge. If you love Tabor as much as I do, then speak up. So that the wimps don't ruin boat racing forever!

[Big Don]

Where does this stuff come from? While maybe it is in Jeff's hands???? This has not been given to the commission and the first I have heard about it.

[Steve Dunn Racing]

Big Don it came from pretty high up ( BOD member) at our club meeting at Tabor City a couple of weeks ago. Not sure what's going on but lm sure it is not good for boat racing! Steve

[Big Don]

Thanks, I'm not in favor of this, if true. There would have to be a very good reason to pull a race from a club that was already granted and approved. I'm not sure what that very good reason would have to be for me to support this, but it would have to be really good.

[Howie Nichols]

To set the record straight, I am the one Steve has mentioned bringing it to the club. I have had numerous phone calls this fall asking me about the WinterNationals at Jesup and when they would be held. After telling everyone that the bid was awarded to Tabor City and I was unsure of the date they would choose almost every single one stated they would not attend and how could we move the event back to Jesup so they could come. Different reasons were stated including the size of the course, the distance of the run to the start, that while it is a good course for 4-6 boats they did not feel it was any good or safe for greater than 6 at one time. All claim Safety, if that makes them wimps because they are concerned for each other then so be it.

CVRA (Abby) and I reached an agreement during a meeting with the SORC in Wakefield (I had placed a 5 year bid for SO & MOD WinterNationals in Jesup) that CVRA would host the event during odd years and Peace River would host in even years if no other bids were placed. After all the phone calls with the concern on Tabor I have offered the Jesup site to CVRA so that club could run the event and even extended help by completing all the permits, paperwork, and getting most equipment there.

CVRA had a club meeting and decided they did not want to host an event that they would then have to drive 9 hours home afterwards and therefore declined my offer. While my club does have a stake in this it does not matter to me if the event is held by another club (if Millville or Standish Maine or whoever was to bid) if the membership is satisfied with the choice and feels safe about it. I will not post my personal feelings since I do have a conflict of interest (Jesup).
.
I refrained from voicing much during the CVRA meeting since it had been said this summer that only dues paying members had a voice (I do not belong to CVRA) but tried to give them some insight so they would know what has been said and could make an informed decision on the event.

On a final note I have been told that this will be an agenda item for the SORC to review in light of the comments made. I have not heard the same from Mod but do know several Mod folks have voiced the same concerns.

[fcliff]

Tabor City is a great race site! We absolutely love racing there! Been there for Winter Nationals and the October race many times. We look forward to being back there for the 2017 Winter Nationals. Don't change a thing.

[dwhitford]

And Mama's restaurant in town on Saturday mornings, serves liver pudding, a local specialty (similar to but different from east Pennsylvania's scrapple). Just ask the Fastjack family & me! In Charlotte, we called this hideous delicacy ''liver mush''. You don't ever want to know what all is in it. Just bite it and savor the goodness. I wish I could get it in East Virginia. I stock up at local supermarkets whenever in Tabor City or Charlotte. Then I take an extra cholesterol pill.

[Steve Dunn Racing]

After reading Mr. Nichols latest post I have come to realize why people leave boat racing - because of agendas that are not for the good of boat racing as a whole.
I started the Tabor City race eight years ago and have been race director 16 times since the first race. The race course was a little tricky at first but with the help of veteran racers such as Eric Vanover and Jerry Davids it has evolved into a long and narrow drivers race course . Over the years a few have complained and others have praised. Not sure how many were stock, mod, or pro but never have I heard that the race course was dangerous as Mr. Nichols has claimed. If I remember correctly we have run at least 10 750 MH on the course without a problem and with no complaints. We have to realize that kneel down racing is a dangerous sport
I raced at the mod summer nationals at Rainbow City with Mr Nichols as ref and we had numerous accidents due to conditions too rough to race on but Mr. Nichols was not out there racing. Maybe too dangerous.
Now that all of that is off my chest I am at this point. I will no longer promote, inspect or be affiliated at APBA sanctioned races . I will participate as an owner of equipment but will no longer be involved as club rep or APBA rep. Just a boat racer. Sorry it came to this but I have been involved in this sport all my life. If anyone wants contact info for Tabor City, I will gladly give you the info.
That's all I have to say. Steve 10-Z since 1988.
Howie, sorry I voted for you.

[Ericwienczak]

If youve paid attention to boat racing this year and all the unfortunate mishaps that have happened, then you should fully understand safety is one of the biggest concerns of the sorc and all racers. It relates to the future of our sport more than you realize

[Howie Nichols]

Steve,
I posted facts. I posted what people came to me with. I never attacked you or CVRA. I have done nothing but support you and CVRA at Tabor City and all of the other events they host. I did not post my personal feelings, some know what they are, I don't care for the Tabor City race course. I still come each and every time so Dad and Becky can race.

In case you didn't notice this fall when none of your club members were around I spent 3 hours cleaning the club trailer, then set up the PA system and the Inspection area. On Sat & Sun I went across the lake with Adam and we set up the Judges Stand so do not preach to me. What I did was for the racers regardless that I did not want to be on that water.

Rainbow City , yes I was the Referee, yes it was rough ( we had several lengthy holds or did you forget), no I did not race, if you remember correctly the C-Mod motor you built for me had bent studs and other issues as well as a propeller (4-Blade Dewald R-23) that was lost during shipping (along with 2 pistons), not to mention the fact that after we got the motor back to running condition I traded the whole rig to Doc Miller - so I had NO equipment to race there! This was all after a blown transmission on the way to the event and having to pay for not only a rental car but a tow truck to get the race trailer there so I could honor my commitment to the Mod Nationals event.

No need to respond to me Steve as I see how it really is. If you decide (and you have said so many times over how you were finished) that you want to stepaway then that is your choice if you need me as a scape goat for it that is fine too.

I have not solicited nor made phone calls to derail the Tabor City event just stated the facts.

[Steve Dunn Racing]

Still sorry I voted for you

[csh-2z]

Where and when are the 2017 S.E. Divisionals? It should be part of the conversation.

[ryan_4z]

This issue is about more than one race site. It is about more than just race courses. It is about our mentality as a group. The root of the problem lies in the commonly accepted misconception that bigger racecourses are safer. This fundamental assumption has been driving us away from raceable venues toward more select sites. It is time we all open our eyes to obvious facts. Incidents have very little to do with what course the race is on. They have little to do even with the water conditions! The thing that is the cause of nearly all, if not all accidents is the driver. Specifically, the way the driver reacts to the course and conditions of the day--whatever and wherever they may be. It is the raceboat driver's first responsibility to get his/her craft safely around the racecourse. (You can't win if you don't finish!!!) It is a lack of personal responsibility that gives smaller courses a bad name. And let us not forget the other pertinent fact here: we see just as many, if not more wrecks on large courses as we do on small courses. Boats flip in smooth water as well as rough. In fact, high speed wrecks are more likely on large courses because high speeds are more likely.

Furthermore, bigger race venues are more likely to be blown out than smaller, better protected sites. Some of our most 'ideal' courses can become unraceable in practically no time at all. The issue with this particular sanction is the championship status of the race. It is, in fact, the standard of racing championships on larger courses that has helped to evolve our sport in a direction where many prefer these course on a week to week basis. In spite of these efforts, consider the reality. Twice in recent memory the Stock Nationals have been run on relocated, millpond courses that make Tabor look like Talledega. The second turn at Wakefield is just as tricky as it is at Tabor. The chute at Moses probably isn't any wider. The turns as Jesup aren't any wider than Tabor, but the wind sure is gustier.

My point is, this isn't about some problem that makes Tabor City unsuitable. More importantly, it isn't about safety. It is time for that scapegoat to be exposed. The problem, as I have stated, is WIMPINESS!! Now, I speaking of none in particular. I am definitely not calling Howie a wimp. The fact still remains, whether you all want to admit it our not, the reason that some don't like what we call 'driver's courses' is that you have to actually drive your raceboat!!! It's not that anybody is incapable. It is not unsafe. It just requires a little more effort. Maybe you will be a little more out of breath after your heat. Nothing wrong with that! Bigger racecourses aren't safer, but they are easier. The things that are important in life are never easy.

So I ask, How important is boat racing to you, individually? Important enough to work a little harder for the three minutes you're in the boat? Come on down to Tabor City. Take the challenge. Personally, I think you all have what it takes.

[David Weaver]

Ryan, I believe that you have this right. From a PRO experience, the race courses have become shorter and often tighter. The emphasis is on acceleration and handling versus pure top-end speed. I have enjoyed racing on very small courses compared to say Lakeland, Lake Alfred or DePue (all fine places to race). There probably have been more bump and bruise incidents, but fewer catastrophic blowovers, barrel rolls and stuffs. A challenge with short courses is the run distance from start to first turn,but common sense and patience are a virtue. Running more laps on a short course can perhaps decrease the need to push the start as needed in a 3 to 4 lap sprint on a 7/16 -11/16 mile course.

At any rate,the discussion should move back to being constructive and objective.

[Jack Stotts]

Well said Ryan! Jack

[pav225]

Ryan,
I'm a big wimp, but I do enjoy racing on all types of race courses, and agree with you 100% that drivers have the greatest impact on safety.
When it comes to race course size impact on safety, Bob Wartinger has some pretty good information on "boat density" and corresponding accident rates. I became aware of his "boat density" study after having my powerhead knocked off in the first turn at Wakefield. It's probably worth anyone's time to discuss with Bob when considering Nationals courses.
In regards to courses and safety, the race committee did a very nice job at Hinton this year adjusting the first turn to make it safer. A big part of the improvement was to have a longer run to the first turn. This adjustment helped boats get spread out a little more before the corner.
I haven't been to Tabor, so I'm not sure where this all fits in, just trying to make sure that people are aware of some of the data that's available.
Sorry to side track your thread...
CONGRATULATIONS on your ASR (wimpy side fin :-) ) High Point Championship!
See you in Tabor.
- Mike

[ryan_4z]

Mike, That is a great point about boat density. I am sure that that is a very relevant statistic. Your example, though, only goes to support my argument. When you lost that powerhead at Wakefield, was the field spread out at all? Didn't look to be from the shore. How long of a run was that? Not long enough, I guess? Statistics are great but they leave a lot out. Yeah, the boats will get spread out on a long run, if they all start at the same time, if they aren't all the same speed. The reality is, the longer the run the faster you go into the first turn. And there will probably always be boats around. In most of these classes there isn't enough difference in speed between the rigs for a lot of spreading out. It all comes back to the driver.

[roperz111]

Just a suggestion:
Why could we not institute an eight (8) boat maximum and run our elimination heats for eight boats if needed? If the Stock category requires an eight boat final it would then be satisfied yet still not be overly populated in boat density terms. I doubt we'd have more than 4-5 classes with eliminations this way, and that shouldn't impact the schedule to badly, especially if we ran on Friday.
I must admit I was surprised at this latest threat of boycott at Tabor City. We've been racing there for over 8 years now and this is the first I ever heard the place was unsafe for more than six boats. Heck, we ran (7) CSH's there just this past October as well as (7) 20ssH's, two of the most competitive classes, with no crowding or density problems. Not much longer than 4-5 years ago we would routinely run 9-11 CSH's or ASH's or 20ssH's (or 750MODS!! believe me if there's ever a class that takes up the course its these guys), sometimes even elimination heats. We've had crashes there but no more than other sites we have, actually much less. The First turn at Tabor is deceptively small-looking from the shore, but there is a lot more room out there once you are in the turn, plus I think there is actually more room to go if the turn needed expanding. I cannot remember racing any event with a six boat minimum EXCEPT for Denton, Md., and there you needed it, but only there. I just don't feel like this is a valid reason for the boycott or cancellation of this championship event for this race site. I applaud Ryan for standing up an speaking on this.
Chris Johnson (3300)
111-Z

[Ericwienczak]

What happened to the 10-11 boat heats that used to happen 4-5 years ago, why have the numbers been lower recently? are people skeptical of racing there?.. just curious as i have never been there before. My opinion is unbiased, but if were talking about running 6-8 boat heats for a supposed national,then the 16 hour drive for me doesnt seem worth it.

Not trying to step on toes but,I dont think there is anything wimpy about people wanting to run 12 boat heats

[csh-2z]

Eric, The lower boat turnout in 20SSH and CSH is not related to the Tabor City race. For any number of reasons we just had quite a few drivers either retire or stop racing within the last couple of years in the southeast. Up until 3 years ago, we would occasionally have eliminations in those two classes.

[fbref5269]

chris, I sent you a pm.

frank
52-E

[JWarren]

Ok, I have a few things to say about this link and take it for what it is! Ryan your dead on buddy! I took the 2016 year off and went to Tabor to race with my friends! A year to the day. I missed all of you, what the heck is wrong with everyone? fighting about what is a safe race corse and which one is not? You don't want to talk about racing statistics with me! I have raced just about everything and it doesn't matter how big or small the race corse is! It's about the jockey behind the reigns, or steering wheel in this case. Your mind, your body, your will has to be in it to win! I will tell all of you this, I don't miss this politics, I'm just fine going to a local race track racing whatever besides boats, instead of fighting with with a bunch of cry baby's, yes I said cry baby's! About where the next race will be and that we are all going to be safe when it's over. Grow up people this is racing and I was born in to it! Not sure how you got into it but it's all about how you make it. I will be at the winter nationals if you would like to discuss this with me, I will be more than happy to give you my opinion! But I will tell you this, if I was new to boat racing and was to read this link, I would bailout real fast! Jimmy

[csh-2z]

This past October race at Tabor City, was my first full weekend as Referee. I informed the drivers that we would run a shortened three minute gun if all of the boats were on the water, It did two things, one - it sped up the program, and two - the water conditions were much better than usual due to lack of milling, even when the wind did pick up. One heat of 750 MH everybody got on the course so fast we only had a 15 second Green flag. We were able to run off 43 heats of racing with 3 patrol boat changes in 5 hrs. 15 min. For those that were there, I would like some feedback from drivers whether they liked the way we ran that race, or if not, how could we improve?

[Matt Dagostino]

Johnny............the 'short' 3 minute gun was great!! Especially on Sunday to keep the program moving...) You looked good on the judges stand and i thought did a great job of running the races!

[M Miner]

I liked it but I am just a nube. I had a great weekend at Tabor City.

[davebphoto]

The fall race was my first time there. With the exception of getting things going on Saturday, I thought the race was run efficiently and those shortened 3 minute guns definitely helped keep things moving. As far as the race course goes, it's a little out of the norm, but that makes it fun and challenging. I felt safe with 6 other CSH's and thought the run into the first turn was plenty long enough. It's a shame that the idea of only racing at these 'perfect' (read: wimpy) race courses has put into question racing at locations like Tabor City. Both Berwick and Kattaning were narrower, smaller and rougher. As finding new race courses becomes harder than ever, it's important to keep the ones we have and support the clubs that put them on.

Dave Breisacher
26-P