Sidewinder J

[ronronx]

Since I will get to learn all this in the future anyway, I checked out the 2016 J Committee meeting minutes. Hopefully I have attached a copy of those minutes and have also highlighted several items that could be of interest to this discussion. No idea if any of it is or will be on the 2017 meeting agenda but interesting non the less.

Regards,
Ron M.

[ronronx]

Well I couldn't get the attachment to open for some reason so I have pasted the
highlights here.

8). Prototype status
a). Chairman Gleason gave a brief review of the prototyping of the OMC .700 AX restrictor plate. No one was aware of any testing that was done and no data results have been provided to the committee. Motion by Jerry Davids, seconded by Jeff Williams to extend the prototype period for this restrictor plate project for the 2016 year. Motion passed unanimously
b). Chairman Gleason also reported that the previous prototype project for the OMC J restrictor plate was a huge success. The new restrictor plates are allowing the OMC’s in J to run in the middle of the pack.

C). AX Speeds – A discussion was held on whether committee members felt the AX classes were going too fast. The chairman polled the members and the consensus was that the speeds were too fast. The consensus of the members was that the speeds should be in 50-52 MPH range since the intent was to keep AX as a “stepping stone” class between J and A Stock. The chairman then asked all committee members to keep an eye on AX this year to see if there were more accidents, how the speeds seem to be, if a Mercury runs in ASH, how does it hold up speed-wise and to come back to the committee with data.

[LarryR]

I thought the mercury motor was assumed to be non-competitive in ASH. The OMCs are faster and the Sidewinder 15s are faster still. Is not this simply the case?

[Team 12R]

The 0.562 was legal in 2015 and 2016. In both years the Mercs dominated almost exclusively at the Nationals. Yes, a good OMC can win but does not always win. In Region 10 both J hydro and Runabout High points were with a Mercury.

John, john, john,
You're smarter than to make a statement like that. The boats that finished with high points did so because they ran 3 times as many races as anyone else in the region.
Let someone other than yourself test the 562 plate. You know as well as I do the mercury and the OMC are different motors. The port heights are different and parity is more than air intake and cubic inch displacement.
Do you remember your runabout at Cullaby this past summer run down that mercury from a half a lap back? Well that mercury took second at Hinton. Let's not forget the borrowed CORA motor that was driven by a brand new driver and won a ridiculous amount if races over a seasoned kid who again ran with and ahead of the best boats in the country.
All I'm asking is someone other than yourself give us some data. What will that hurt? Maybe your right? Maybe the 562 is the right thing to do.

[GrandpaRacer]

I would like to hear some data from others. My experience is that typically the OMC runs 37-39 mph.

[pav225]

I believe the J Committee has stated that the Merc is the motor of choice for J and AX.
In order to help get more kids on the water (and at a lower price point), the OMC has remained in the class. Over the last few years, the Mercs have really pulled away from the OMCs, to the point that OMCs were almost getting lapped. To help keep the kids with OMCs from being completely frustrated and quitting the sport, the J Committee made the wise decision to open the restrictor to let the kids be more competitive. They had very limited test information and made the best decision with the data available. In our Region they seemed to hit a home run. The OMCs were more competitive, the kids racing them had more fun being able to race near their friends, but the Mercs were still faster.
If people are seeing different results in their Region, it would be good to gather some data and share it with the J Committee.

[Team 12R]

Thanks Mike,
The idea was sound and it has helped the J's with OMC motors. Unfortunately the rule was put in place with very limited testing. I have both a good mercury and a good OMC. My OMC with the 562 is almost 2mph faster than my Merc. Due to a bad crash we are rebuilding for this year. Puts me in a spot how to build a new boat. Transom spacers suck but I just can't ignore Im much faster with the OMC. The Merc is supposed to be the motor of choice.
The guy to talk with isn't going to post here. His son took second in JSR in Hinton. He has the data. His boats this year were the ones who did the work, made great starts and were passed by OMC's (in both JSH& JSR) having sizable leads on more than one occasion.
I'm not asking OMC motors not be a part of J. Just asking that someone other than 1 guy in the country (who owns 3 OMC's) have a part in the data and we make the right decision based on unilateral testing.

[LarryR]

Team 222R makes an excellent point and I support his conclusion. That said, the OMC finished 2d at the Nationals, between two mercs. The same thing occurred on Sunday at Tabor City in JSH.
Maybe they are competitive?

That said, I'd like to know how to determine, at a race site, if the OMC is based on a 200MOD motor. I am NOT claiming that anyone is cheating, but how would the owner of a newly acquired used rig know the difference?

[PAUL PRICE]

Well said Mike

[Matt Dagostino]

They had very limited test information and made the best decision with the data available.
If people are seeing different results in their Region, it would be good to gather some data and share it with the J Committee.

Well said...........not having kids in J Class anymore we ran both the OMC in the 1990's and the Merc 15 more recently and had great success with both! When the issue came up about the bigger plate for the OMC i kinda wondered what our killer OMC would have run like with that bigger plate. But again the J Committee did the best it could with what LIMITED data they choose to use in making their decision.I agree giving the ole OMC a little boost is a good thing to keep boat count up and provide a affordable point of entry into boat racing for the kids but yet not beat the Motor Of Choice (Merc 15).
Any major class changes by a Commission should seek DATA from more than one source before making such major decisions as 222-R points out!! While the team gathering the data may have good intentions data can differ from team to team and a Commission should look at several sources before making changes to assure the desired results are realistic.........you both make great points!.....

[Team 12R]

Thanks Matt and btw I would gladly unplug my motor. I agree it's one of those slippery deals.

[GrandpaRacer]

The "unilateral" data that was presented to the J committee was the result of three families of Js gathering data at 2 race week ends. We found the OMCs ran in the 37-39 mph range. I recommended that the restrictor be 0.563, the committee changed it to 0.562. I would like to ask again, how fast do other OMCs go? So far there is a lot of complains about my data and no one will say what theirs is. I can not remember if my fast motor was in my data set or not. My fast motor is faster than the average OMC.
John Adams

[GrandpaRacer]

I should add that the two race sites were Eatonville and Lawrence Lk, both pretty fast. It is highly likely my fast motor was one of two I used, I just can not specifically remember.

[Dr. Thunder]

Why not remove 99% of the variables and just run them in a straight line ... Lincoln City Kilos ... problem solved! Better yet just have one engine per class!

[GrandpaRacer]

The 1/4 mile JH record is 41.86mph with a Merc set by the Olson Pavlick team. That is pretty fast!

[65R]

222R, you mentioned your OMC is almost 2 mph faster than your Merc. I'm curious what speeds are you seeing with your OMC?

[GrandpaRacer]

So here we are two years into running the OMCs with 0.562 restrictor plates. To my limited understanding, it has worked very well across the country. I understand the Mercs are still faster but the OMCs can hang in there. In our region a couple of OMCs can win some of the time but most never win. The kids and Dads running OMCs have been very happy with the change since they can at least keep the winners in their view. Now there is a proposal to the J committee to make the OMC restrictor smaller again. In spite of the data I prepared for the original decision being highly criticized here, no data has been included to say just how slow the new restrictor will make the OMCs go. This would likely make sure those OMC kids never win. If you are an OMC racer and do not want the J committee to slow you down please speak to your J commissioner! I will also point out that while there has been complaining about how fast those OMCs are going, no one has posted any data other than mine as to how fast they typically are. I think the J committee made a good choice two years ago and as long as OMCs are not winning the Nationals and not setting records, it is good. We tried real hard to set a record at Lawrence this year and could not beat the Mercury record. I now believe it will never happen with an OMC at 0.562.

[Team 12R]

Your testing was well intended John. You got the OMC winning again. Do you really think having 3 drivers in our region run a larger restrctor and tell you yes their motor is faster is the kind of test to change the rule for the whole country?
The mercury is the motor of choice and the future. The mercury is the motor apba is selling to a new racer. Unlike the 30 year old OMC motors new parts are available for the mercury. There is a problem when an OMC like yours or mine can cone from behind a long way and pass a mercury that stands tall in a national event against other mercurys.
I have just asked this to be looked at and the best OMC be tested with the 562 against the best mercs.
I ask you this John. If you owned 3 mercury motors rather than your 3 OMC motors would you be taking this so personally?
I own a really fast OMC. I think I owe it to this sport to know if the 562 is unfair. I want to know and I
think a lot of the guys spending a lot of money on the motor of choice in J do also.

[PAUL PRICE]

I have tested both , My mercury motors are faster then the omc. I sold the mercury motors to my west coast friends and I know how good they are. A 35 year old omc should not be running them down .... simple. I understand why the plate was made larger , if you were at Moses Lake you would understand. If I had a killer omc don't you think I would run it.

[bmitch1]

We have a stock OMC...one we purchased off Hydroracer from someone getting out of the sport in 2014 and I wanted the gearfoot for a J Mercury I was learning to build up from a fishing motor. Turns out we got a pretty good OMC because with some savvy driving and a bit of luck we managed 2nd at Divisionals in 200MH, 2nd in the NAC for 200MH and 3rd in 200MR at Nationals. Our stock OMC was racing in a modified class and we lost to legitimate 200 mod motors - but we beat several folks who were also running with stock OMC powerheads. Here comes the real irony: all of these OMCs are showing up in 200 mod because they are no longer competitive in Stock A classes against the current production Sidewinder. (Anyone recall a passionate conversation about the power plant of choice for Stock A evolving because a motor was out of production?) Now, I understand that a good unrestricted motor may not translate to a good restricted motor; however, if the .562 restrictor for OMC is legal when we start testing in the spring we may need to find out whether we have good "J" OMC. Why? Because, we had at least 3 new JH families join racing this year after attending driver schools and they all purchased Mercury motors. Which one of these will ask me first to borrow our stock OMC that they can't easily source for themselves….all because some kids with limited-availability motors are winning with them??

In the "From the Top" column of the November/December 2016 issue of Propeller, President Wheeler reinforces the challenges facing newcomers to our sport, stating: "Competitive equipment is often difficult to find, time to work on equipment is in short supply, and speed secrets are tightly held by established racers." Heed this advice my boat racing family. Don't protect an out-of-production motor for a stock class when there is a ready alternative. I understand it's personally rewarding to make them competitive again but you are placing the health and growth of the sport at risk. If you want to retain the OMC as an alternative less-expensive option, that’s fine…but make darn sure it does not run equally with what the sport is promoting as the accessible, fairly-priced motor of choice.

Parity for the OMC? Parity means equal and unfortunately its not going to be equal if everyone doesn't also have access to it.

[GrandpaRacer]

It is exciting that you have been so successful gettin new J drivers into the sport, way to go! With the Mercury engines they will be in good shape to have a lot of fun. These families may enjoy my beginners manual at this site or on APBA. Here's a link: https://hydroracer.net/2015%20Hydro%20basics.11.7.pdf
John Adams

[bmitch1]

We already linked it from the TRORA website, and appreciate you sharing it! Thanks!

[Graham 18ce]

after reading all this all i can remember is hitting 36 mph in J60! and now we are talking 40 plus for J???? Slow them all down!

[Timothy Mattson]

Hello from an old rookie,
Have been reading this forum for many years, time to share some observations.
I have shared a HARM J hydro with a buddies kid and we run a decent OMC in JH, AXH, and ASH.
Our experience has been watching Mercs pass us on all but the smaller tighter courses.
With restrictor , the throttle response lags badly.
As a boat builder and new racer ,
I see the lower profile of the OMC and ease to work on of great value.Parts are around except for the lower.Carb is fixed jet.
In AX , I placed near last until the transom was inset to bring the nose of lower tight to the transom.
Speed in AX feels safe even in 10 boat fields.
Only felt scary at Cullaby with one gust, and briefly at Manson on Columbia River where sneaker waves appeared which sent us airborne.
In A stock the motor acts happy and doesn't feel gagged when you use throttle.Actually thought cover blew off as it roared first time I ran unrestricted.
Sorry no mph data,just trying to run clean and stay upright.
We also own only one prop, "our prop" so haven't found out if we have more speed to reach.
I'd have a hard time recommending the Sidewinder to a new family as it does need some carb mix fine tuning to run as it should.
A brand new Merc also won't do well until "being gone thru", at least from what I have been told and learned.
I am an outboard tech and was blown away by how "non-stock" these outboards are from when new.
I am doing all I can to help promote this sport but am disheartened when seeing the OMC (with it's smaller cu inch)being called unfair to those who spent more for the motor of choice (that won't win until sent to one of the motor builders workshop ).
The Sidewinders are mighty but once in awhile, one can beat them,though it will be rare 3 dq at same time.😊 After having someone tell me "own one or chase one" it was really sweet.
I do like the idea of a made in USA engine being added to the J menu but also see it best for the multi generation racing families that will dominate with the purpose -built race motor.

Maybe we run Elims with each make of motor then run final with cream of the crop.
Glad I am not growing fast like the kids so won't outgrow the boat but I may move up in class since my friend's kid is almost of Ax age.
Special thanks to Mr. Adams for his open sharing of knowledge!
Tim Mattson
43-R

[Dr. Thunder]

Excellent comments Tim. Intrigued by the elims concept (as long as we have two different engines) but have come to the conclusion J Committee needs to move to a single engine J class. Personally, would prefer to see the Sidewinder A (restricted or diff carb) be the only option. Don't know how APBA determined J Merc price at 3995. Anybody know the answer to that?

[SeaBat]

We are leaving out the effect of setup, props, boat design, driver skill (some have a natural aptitude right from the get go), and good old fashioned luck. There will be some motors, both Merc and OMC, that seem have something that makes them faster than others. The present restrictor seems to be the best option at this time. No OMC's less new people entering APBA racing. As far as J Sidewinder goes, at this time, the cost could cause some parents to look else ware for there kids need for speed, and after all it is their wallet.
Bill

[Dr. Thunder]

Just a what if follow-up ... how about sealed engines, one design boat, props are already not an issue since J category provides. This should be a starter class where new, young drivers get their skills developed

[Graham 18ce]

i dont think boat design should be in it...I'd like to think as a father myself of boys coming to age in the coming years, that i can restrict the motor and run it as a J.
at least go out and by myself an OMC and get them running around the course and feeling good about them self.
I'd happily restrict my sidewinder, or at least change carbs, etc... something like the OMC's where there was no real fusing with Jets, or timing between changes.

[Scott Deware]

I was going to stay on the sidelines with this one but ............ One of the only growing divisions in boat racing I'm being told. So why is it as soon as we get a good thing going there are people that want to mess it up! Guys, we're talking about J Division here. Classes being run by 9-16 year old kids. A class that we hope will provide the spark that will make these kids life long racers. But first we have to get them into boats. I've been working with the J kids in the Northeast for several years and what I've heard over and over from parents is that they're worried about spending thousands of dollars on equipment on a generation of kids with the attention span of Cheerios. Now, to clarify ..... I'm talking parents from families who have never been involved in the sport. My point ....For the class to continue to grow (all classes, not just J's), we have to attract new families. We'll have an opportunity to get the kids from racing families into boats if they want but that's not going to sustain any class or any organization. This fact is true in all motorsports, not just boat racing. So, do we attract newbies J families to the sport with $3 - 5K boats and $5K motors? My experience is NO. We attract them to the sport with an affordable package to see if their kid is really interested. We currently have two motor options. Is it a perfect world, of course not. But as much as the OMC is maligned, it's cheep and there are still a ton of them sitting in peoples garages and the back of shops. Although a bit more expensive, the same goes for the Merc. Yes, the gear foot is a problem, but do we solve that problem by bringing in another (limited production) motor? And again, we're talking about kids ...... I'm not going to comment on the reliability of the Sidewinder ..... and some OMC's can be a bear to start ......But I do know one or two pulls on a Merc usually is all it takes. As for reliability, one of my daughters has over 200 heats of racing on her Merc, and is racing a fourteen year old boat. In 2015 she finished 2nd in J High Points and 3rd at the Nationals (at 330 lbs), and just won AX at Tabor City last month. Will it beat a few of the boats out there coming from families who spend hours and hours and dollars and dollars to get every last tenth of a second out of a lap...... no. But then how many of us in the J Division have the money and time to do that ........ I'd venture a guess that this is a small group. We need to stop looking at every class (and I do mean every class) from the perspective of those who have the money, time, and technology to treat this like F1. Leave that for the Mod guys. Again this is J! We all want our kids to do well, but this also needs to make sense. I say if it's not broke don't fix it. The J Division is growing. If it needs a little tweak fine ..... but no new motors. let the OMC's run ...... Let the Merc's run ...... take a deep breath and consider that no matter what engines we allow there will always be a few people who will spend whatever time and dollars they have to push it to the limit ...... and lets try to make rules that make sense for the rest of the racers ...... I'll step off my soap box now. LOL

[pav225]

In answer to Dr Thunder's original question :
At this time the J and AX classes are working well. Yes, there will always be minor tweaks to be made, but overall, the classes are competitive, you can easily get equipment, and it's a great starting point for many new people to get into racing.
Add the HARM project and Driving Schools and you have a great formula for helping grow the sport.
While the J Committee needs to keep its eye on the future, and ensure motors/equipment are available, I believe it would be a big mistake to consider any motor changes at this point. New motors are available, and fishing motors can be bought cheap all over the country, so there is a huge supply.
Finally, the parity between the Merc and OMC (considering the Merc is the motor of choice) seems spot on. My sons didn't race J at Nationals, and I didn't see any GPS #s, but I would guess the Mercs were running 40ish. While it will be good to see more data, I do believe the J Committee has done a nice job supporting the Merc being the motor of choice, while making the OMC a good/less expensive option to get started.
Before anyone replies about motor, I don't think any new motors should be considered to replace the Merc any time soon. This applies to Tohatsu, Sidewinder, OMC, and Yamato.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone,
- Mike

[Dr. Thunder]

Thanks Mike ... great response! Let me sum up the issue I was attempting to address by quoting from Mikes response. "At this time the J and AX classes are working well", and " ...the J Committee needs to keep its eye on the future, and ensure motors/equipment are available". Nuff said on this topic. Thanks to all that responded.