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Tell me why the Sidewinder shouldn't be the J engine of the future ...
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Untethered from reality! -
1-Not everyone can afford a Sidewinder.
2-Lots of good OMC's and Mercurys still on the race course.
3-Availability of that many Sidewinders. -
To the OP: How far in the future? And under what circumstances?
Selecting a motor of choice for any class can be assessed on a handful of a factors:
-Price
-Accessibility/Availability
-Reliability
-Support/Parts
Any motor needs to be thoughtfully judged on these elements against any other current options. In addition, consideration should be given on the potential for change on these factors... (manufacturer bankruptcy e.g. OMC. ; regulatory change by EPA etc)
Price: The current J motor of choice costs between $2800-$3500 (this accurate and recent). APBA will sell you one for $3995, brand new. A new Sidewinder is $5000. Keep in mind, with J, you are discussing a class where the parent is likely to be more cost sensitive than something for themselves in Stock.
Edge: Mercury
Accessibility/Availability: You can get a good Mercury within days. Sidewinder is still ramping up production and lead time appears to be around 6 months. Edge: Mercury
Reliability: this is probably the most subjective factor as individual experience is much tougher to qualify. The Mercury has been running relatively problem free for a number of years and any 'bugs' in how it is being used have mostly been identified and minimized. The Sidewinder seems to be stabilizing as time passes but ignition, flywheel, and crankshaft appear to areas in progress. Also, we race in a sport where sometimes the motor is submerged. And while every motor needs special care after a dunking, I've been advised that Sidewinders have some additional risk in this under the current configuration. The proficient J parent can dry and return a Mercury to running condition in 20 minutes and not fear lingering ignition or crankshaft alignment issues. It is critical that the kids are getting good green flag starts to ensure excitement and interest in the sport. If a J racer is being left on the beach due to issues of reliability or consistency they will lose interest quickly.
Edge: Mercury
Which leads us to..
Support/Parts: Mercury parts are available through several websites, from Mercury dealers, and have a ready amount of third-party options from resellers and auction sites. Due to the current manufacturing capability of Sidewinder and the ongoing optimization of parts design/configuration and supply, there are supply limitations.
Edge: Mercury
I'm optimistic for the future of Sidewinder, as an American company innovating an American-made outboard racing motor. My family currently has one on order, and during my own investigation many people have explained that once you resolve any hiccups it is an easy motor to work on, and it's fun to drive. Further it appears to be lighter which would help situations where larger kids are forced from J too soon due to weight. Perhaps one day it can be considered for the J class but further work needs to be done to address factors above to make it a reasonable alternative against the current option based on the factors above.Comment
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Price: What if the price is the same?
Accessibility: What if APBA stocked Sidewinders liek they stock Mercury?
Reliability: What if the sidewinder was detuned and sealed like the 300ssh class motor?
Support: What if you didn't have to take your $3995 Merc and send it away to be rebuilt to compete, it just came sealed and ready to race? -
Anything is possible - if any of the factors change it creates an opportunity for reevaluation; however, like any change it is easiest when the affected population is 'attracted to' rather than 'driven to' change. Reducing the price without addressing other issues probably won't solicit the excitement needed to support a change. A free motor lacking parts or inaccessible to many won't convert the masses. Also, my personal opinion is if the motor is readily-accessible, generally reliable, and parts are relatively attainable, we may find that price may not be the deciding factor.
In the ultimate solution - a price-competitive, sealed, readily-available, low-maintenance, parts-friendly, reliable motor would sell itself and become an overwhelming success.
There are many variables to consider.
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Dr Thunder - you state solution as a high point - Is there a problem with the present J engines ?
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Don't know if there is a problem with the engine or not since I am not a current racer. Are they competitive as received new? Am under the impression that it is difficult to buy them new as APBA only has one or two that are available. My question has more to do with the future of the J class than what is currently on the water. -
Dr. thunder,
Mercury j/ax are a good reliable engine that need minimal work new to become competitve. if you go to the for sale section there is a whole bunch of them for sale. Once a driver moves out of J they can run Ax with that motor as well.
I think instead of building side winder Js it would be smarter to restrict the A motor and form a new j class for sidewinders. But it would be hard to build the class due to the fact that the J class as it stands now is one of the best thought out classes in stock outboard and the mercs are readily available
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Dr. Thunder,
Why would APBA want to help support the only outboard racing manufacturer in the USA? We should be shunning them and critiquing their every move, as it is well known that all boat racers are basically as knowledgeable as any marine engineer and manufacturer.
It's shame that APBA, BOD level, has not done more to support the endeavors of Sidewinder Motor Co. That is all.Comment
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Hey Howard maybe you should check your facts about sidewinder (the only outboard racing engine produced in The US) before you open your mouth. -
I'm not kidding anyone.
I am interested in all of the Piston and overheating failures you speak of, as I have not witnessed this being a chronic problem by anyone.
Can you specify who has had these problems with the 15SW?
We have raced the our SW15 for 3 full seasons now. We had to replace the ignition to the OMC style as the CDI components don't seem up to snuff at the higher RPM ranges. Outside of that we have put one set of rings in the engine. That's it! I re-ring my yamato yearly. So the reliability and maintenance is 1/3 less than my Bullet Proof 302.
Can you list the independent parts other than ignition and carburetor? Because I can't.
Back to the point of the thread. What's the plan for when the Mercury well drys up? When that day comes and who knows when that will be, a new family wanting to start racing will go something like this..
- New racer attends driver school
- New racer wants to participate and buy NEW equipment
- New racer is told that you'll need to find a mid section and gear case that is available in a used marketplace.
- New racer is told to get a Powerhead and you'll need to scavenge the internet to find the legal PH. Or call GP
- New racer will need to send the engine to an engine builder to modify so it is competitive.
- New racer says Oh, I guess I'll go gokarting.
A plan for an available J engine should be in place and talked about. Let's say that SW develops a plan for a J engine. You're basically down to carb R&D. Let's assume that that is not a lengthy process. You can then make a 5 year plan to introduce the engine into the class. Just about every person racing J will be out of the class after year 5.
This is where you can now have very sellable program. Where you get started in J and when you want to move into the A classes you need to change the Carb or pull the restrictor plate. In this scenario you now have purchased one engine instead or two as is the current format.
The only drawback to the SW15 at this point is availability. It is well known that this is has been it's largest issue for the detractors. SW is addressing this issue. Engines on the shelf ready for purchase is the last piece of their puzzle that I feel is necessary for it's success.
There is also a lot of merit to having the J class a sealed engine class.
I look forward to your response Howard.Last edited by adamallen; 11-14-2016, 01:35 PM.
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I don't know you very well, Adam, but am I detecting some sarcasm in your post? Where do you really stand?Comment
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"APBA" doesn't have a stance on the issue one way or the other. Currently this only has to do with Stock Outboard. Racing Outboards has not yet begun development of a "J" motor, although it is in the plan for the future. The vast majority of Sidewinder owners are very happy with the performance of their motors and the way the company responds to each individual situation that occasionally occurs. There are detractors, some with a loud voice, that believe they are looking out for the future of the sport and in some cases have valid concerns.
Honestly, now that my father has passed, I believe there will be an improvement in the service from Racing Outboards. Ed has been under tremendous pressure for the last couple of years dealing with our fathers health issues daily. As harsh as that may sound, it is the reality.
John Runne
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# 1 reason is you can not get lower units needed for the many J motors now and if the reliability of the Sidewinder is not improved it will become another frustrating engine that will drive out new racers. The Sidewinder group needs to focus on making J lower units available for Mrec and OMC engines on an as ordered basis. J class had the best growth in numbers in 2016 the last thing needed is an expensive non reliable engine!Originally posted by Dr. Thunder View PostComment
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The J class is a cluster F already. Why not add the sidewinder? APBA wants J to be an easy entry feel good class. It really appeared for a while that the merc was the motor of choice and we were headed in the right direction. The decision to allow the larger restrictor plate for the OMC was a BIG MISTAKE. How is it fair when a guy spends 5k on a merc, wins national and comes back home and gets clobbered buy a loner 30 year old OMC by a kid in his first race?
The answer by the powers to be "you guys need to work on your mercs" was total bull****. Heck, let the sidewinder run J. It's how things roll with this sport..Bill Dingman "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."Comment
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With all due respect - facts are missing from this post:
Were the restrictor plates legal for the respective class? I witnessed a new driver this summer running an OMC beat good Mercury motors because he ran the incorrect restrictor in J. The results were noticed and addressed in inspection.
What was the capability of each driver? And how did they perform in the event? Put an experienced driver in a legal OMC powered rig, against a first-time kid in a Mercury and I'll put some money on an OMC win.
Regarding $5k for a Mercury - it is unfortunate but this parent overpaid. The prices I quoted in my post above for race-ready Mercury motors ($2800-$3400) are accurate - as this information was from actual sales for new racers during the past 3 weeks. I was neither buyer nor seller.
As a further example, the motors we purchased for my own kids since early-2014 ranged from $2200 (minus gearfoot) to $3400.
The J Committee has done a great job supporting and configuring this class, and they continue to be receptive to constructive feedback.Last edited by bmitch1; 11-19-2016, 10:14 PM.
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Brian,
With all due respect you are quite wrong. I watched on several occasions this past year a rookie driver make a marginal start and come from a half a lap to pass a mercury that took 2nd in West Virginia. This happens with 3 seperate OMC motors with the proper restrictor plates. This problem wasn't broght to attention because none of the good OMC motors raced in Hinton.
I own 4 mercury J motors. One has been built by one of the best guys in the nation. My 20 year old OMC smokes them all and my (average driver) son can pass the motors that place on the podium at Nats. The OMC restrictor testing that was submitted by a really smart guy and was hardly verified and his own OMC routinely comes from behind to win when he doesn't make a good start.
The argument will be made that the mercs are too expensive for a kid to get started and gearcases aren't available for guys building race motors from fishing motors.
The J committee has turned a blind eye to this problem. You are welcome to give me a call and I will give you the names of the guys I'm talking about.
I'm not some new guy talking trash. I own an OMC I feel could be the fastest J in region 10. I just don't think this should be the direction the class should be headed.
Bill
503.936.1066Bill Dingman "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."Comment
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The problem is the person selected over and over by the APBA president to be lead the J class committee, until there is a person put in this position that actually knows anything about how engines run, or have a basic knowledge of an internal combustion engine or actually work to support a worldly effort vs his own private agendas then progress can be made on this subject. Thank god for U Tube and a computer so the J class leader can make some believe he actually knows something------
Based on the comment below it appears I maybe off the Christmas card list or maybe he has no minutes left on his phone????Last edited by hshawwpba; 11-14-2016, 09:37 AM. -
Howard if you wish to continue bashing my family and I in public, Why not have the stones to pick up a phone. -
Heck, while you guys are at it why not UNPLUG both the engines. Plugging is cheating as far as i was concerned. When this issue arose in the late 1980's with the OMC A we should have taken a stand to beach the cheaters and leave our factory produced engines STOCK and let them cool properly in lieu of overheating them and causing long term damage by legalizing plugging.. At least the J Committee led by Pat finally woke up and let the Merc be plugged properly at the powerhead and not through the thermostat..........so in Pat's defense good work! I am not so sure about the restrictor plate enlarging for the OMC J. There are just so many variables in that equation and so little test data by top teams from all over the USA to date....Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 11-14-2016, 11:43 AM.
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At this time the Sidewinder in J is a non issue. They have not yet put any effort into that prospect. They have plenty of work to do to improve service to their customers without adding that distraction. That being said, when the time comes that they are asked to produce a J motor, they will respond with a product. Whether it be a restricted "A" or something more than that nobody knows yet. APBA buys gearfeet from Racing Outboards. I believe there is a minimum quantity per order. When APBA places an order for them, they will begin to make more for that purpose. Their primary focus is to have gearfeet for their Sidewinder customers. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding of the situation.Comment
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Are you saying that the #1 reason for the SW not being in J is due to the lack of LU's for the current engines? I'm trying to make sense of this but, I am having trouble tracking with your thought process. CSH 2-Z also addressed this in the post above.Originally posted by hshawwpba View Post
Please help me understand the reliability issues on the SW15.
Racing is expensive on any level as it takes participants that have disposable income to endeavor into something that satisfies their competitive nature. Most competitive teams in the J Classes have multiple engines/PH to keep competitive. We own one SW15 and won the Nationals and National High Point this year. The engine was what we focused on least to get our rig competitive.
J Class and the 300 class are all equally successful because of availability of product. I think that it would be fair to say that the 300 class has had even more success in it's 5 year tenure as class in regards to growth.Last edited by adamallen; 11-14-2016, 01:37 PM.Comment
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Adam ... please check PM. ThanksUntethered from reality!Comment
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Does anyone know the current availability of Mercury J engines? I mean complete and new off the shelf.Comment
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Hey Adam,
This isn't the answer to your question but I have managed to put together 4 motors in the last year from craigslist. After selling off the gearcases my average cost for these stock fishing motors is under 500 bucks.
Using 500 bucks for simplicitly add 700 for the BTM kit and 1400 for the sidewinder racing gearcase makes it a motor for 2600 bucks.
I actually have a couple motors that I bought as long-shafts and sold complete midsection and lower unit for what I paid for the complete motor. Short mids can be had for 200 bucks on ebay. This makes those motors 2300.
There is the easy way to get a mercury J motor. Anyone can do it. If we could only get the 562 restrictor moved back to 500 on the OMC motors I might be able to sell one of those mercs. Nobody wants a merc out here when a OMC is faster and can be bought complete with a racing lower for 1500 bucks. Doesn't matter when it gets hurt or wore out and parts aren't available.Last edited by Team 12R; 11-16-2016, 10:41 PM. -
Adam - per Mark APBA has 3 in stock at this time, and they've been moving them at the 1 motor every year or two.
I'd have to give +1 on Bill's comment - we have a couple of Craigslist/eBay motors. The latest motor was a recovered fishing engine purchased from Craigslist. Purchased the motor for $750, sold the gearfoot on eBay for about $300 (minus shipping), and then added the BTM conversion. There are people able to assist with any block work - Stillwell, Fairchild, etc - I just had to ask around some experienced racers from my region for guidance...
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It is true that there are some really good OMC motors just as there are good Mers. I have one (of my 3 OMCs) that has always been exceptional. Back in the '80s it set multiple J records and it is still fast today. But on average the Mercury's are faster than the OMCs. With the .562 the typical OMCs run in the 37-39mph range while the Mercs run +40mph range. The current OMC restrictor at 0.562 is smaller than the restrictor in the Mercury and the actual APBA restrictor is less than .562. Also, the OMC is a smaller displacement engine. Next year we will be running AX, if we run the good OMC we will be at a significant disadvantage with it's 0.650 restrictor vs none in the Mercury. Even with our good motor I doubt we will be very competitive. We ran borrowed Mercs in 2015, and one of the three was significantly faster in J than the other two.
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I just remembered in 2015 the Pavlicks came out for that race and kicked our West Coast butts. They would have won everything but jumped in one heat by 3 ft. -
I have MUCH respect for the Pavlicks, Hearn and Price entries. They all spend a tremendous amount of time and effort testing, analyzing, and doing it all over again getting it right.. And they beat us too. If I had started our family racing 30 years ago i would hope to be just as fast.
But the reason this issue is important is everyone else...the group who has an average or otherwise decent Mercury... And purchased it as the motor of choice for the class. The J class does not want the new racers we picked up at racer schools in 2016 trying to source good OMC motors. -
The J Committee will have a tough decision to make. We have finished with J and will be moving on to AX. Are we in Region 10 the only place where hot OMCs can win? I have not heard from any other area (have not asked before either).
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