Age old question

[Hydro doc]

If you are the turn judge, what would you do? The situation is; there is a disable boat setting in the turn, the lead boat turns on its out side, the next boats go to the inside and thus gains an advantage. What would you do, let it go or disqualify the boats who failed to follow the lead boat?

[Jack Stotts]

Requiring trailing boats to follow the lead can lead to unsatisfactory results. If the guys/gals in the trailing boats, don't see the situation soon enough it may result in there not being enough room or violent turns. Don't recommend such a rule

[joejohn44]

I don't think there is enough information given. For example, where in the turn is the disabled boat? How many lanes out is he? In which direction is the disabled boat drifting? Let's go to the extreme for a moment and say he has drifted 8 lanes out do you turn right to go on the outside of him? No. Also in the extreme, let's say he is 10 feet from the entrance bouy...of course you are going outside of him....So, the conclusion one must draw is that there is a point at which it makes more sense, for competition as well as safety, to go to the inside as opposed to the outside. That has to be a split second decision on the drivers part and the only ones who have a say are the driver, the turn judge and ultimately, the Referee. In a perfect world, they are all on the same page.

[joejohn44]

I CAN see, however, the argument that the trailing boat has an obligation to follow the decision of the lead boat...provided the lead boat isn't using the disabled boat as a pick. Again, I think the decision is up to the driver, turn judge and Referee...

[Guest]

Depends on the Racing Rules. US Title Series has NO such rule.

[runabout333]

Doc,, you have brought up a VERY sensitive issue,,, especially for me. If you are pertaining to the last heat of C-Stock Hydro at Grove,,
the red flag should have been displayed... I take my instruction from the Referee.. In my opinion,,, the turn boat judges have the right to
challenge the referee's decision.. As we do have radios in the turn boats,, it would have been very easy for the turn boat judge to radio the referee and make a different call. Maybe I took this too personal,,, but I was confronted after the race concerning that specific situation. I have not read in depth the NBRA rule book, so I am not aware of the proper protocall. I am glad that you brought this up as now I feel much better that someone besides me feels the same way.
I have been troubled about this since that day.. No trash talked intended,,, as I will always support boat racing, of all sanctions, to the best of my ability.

[Hydro doc]

The answer is, as JoeJohn has eluded to, there is no answer because the circumstance changes very quickly. The lead boat does what he or she thinks is best, and so on. All drivers have a decision to make when there is a change in the race course. I was not suggesting a rule, but we want to race safe and we do not want to be disqualified either.

[runabout333]

Just curious,,, did I speak out of turn??? I am on the side of safety.

[Dave M]

I have to agree with Jack Stotts. No such rule should exist, it creates a dramtic issue, and the drivers are the VERY best ones to make the decision to go inside or outside. A turn judge is helpless, a referee is helpless in these situations becasue they are not in the said boat trying to decide where to go.

Thanks for bringin this up Doc, I intend to make a proposal to submit at the National Meeting to remove this rule from the rulebook. I consider it a safety issue, but would like the drivers to have the chance to provide input and direction as well. Owners and non-drivers need to stay out of the discussion at the meeting, as I feel this is truly something the drivers need to talk about.

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

Just information, In some other forms of racing, when there is down rider the yellow flag is displayed, no passing in the yellow flag area, passing on the yellow is a DQ.

I would think on the second time around with no red or black flag it's game on.

[Steve77t]

Simple, was the dead boat driver paddling out of the way? If not he is out, Drivers have to use good judgement here. Me if i had ten foot between turn bouy and dead boat, I'm going on the pin. No harm no foul. Others may go outside. They know what their boat will do. In Pro's the driver has to paddle out of the way. Sometimes inside the course other times outside. Problem for turn judges and refs is they are not at same sight angle as driver is. Sometimes you have to lay down a 100.00 bill and protest the race which forces the commission to do their job. Steve

[Big Don]

Better hope I'm not the turn judge/race committee if you dive in a space of 10 feet I would consider giving you a red card. 10 ft is not a lot of space when your talking about safety.

[Steve77t]

Well Don, Like I said, the driver has a better view than you do at a much different angle. You can see things that look close from the beach or patrol boat but the driver has more room than you can see from these points. The drive must make that call not someone that thinks what they saw. I have been in this spot many times as a driver and as a patrol boat judge. I have asked "The Drivers" how close was that really? Answer from dead boat, Not at all 10 or better feet, but it did not look like it from my view, So in closing, Why do we look for way's to throw people out of racing, rather than try to keep them in? The main guy that should be DQ'ed is the dead boat for NOT PADDLING OUT OF THE WAY! he would have a whole lap to do this in. I have in some cases moved the patrol boat in the way so no racing driver can go between marker and dead boat. Remember it is the drivers responsibility to look and see that the flags displayed tell them to do. There have been NON offending drivers thrown out for not looking at the flags from the corners or judges stand. Hell I have seen races go on for two laps after a REd flag has been displayed and flares have been shot off. Steve

[Big Don]

Not looking to throw anyone out. You of all people should know that. What I'm saying is 10' is not a safe distance. We can argue that till the end of time. I will not change my opinion on that. Can I see 10 feet from the judges stand? No. My point is 10 feet is not enough, your boat is how wide? You are not going to hit the pin so lets say your a foot off the pin, you really want to come within 3 feet of a driver knowing full well that our boats are not on a rail?

[Big Don]

Too many variables to give an answer.

But I would think this is the same with most race committees. If the turn judges think it's unsafe they can throw a red flag. I would 100% support that decision, they are our eyes out there. If they think he's in a safe position and someone does something unsafe to gain an advantage discuss with the rest of the race committee if they should be DQ'ed.

The problem when a boat is sitting anywhere in a corner, is when several other boats are racing it's easy to lose track in the spray and the next think you know someone is getting run over.

Patrol boat should do everything the can to position themselves in front of that boat or driver. If they feel it's not safe doing that then it's probably not safe to allow the boat to sit there...throw the red flag then.

[Larry M]

If you are the turn judge, what would you do? The situation is; there is a disable boat setting in the turn, the lead boat turns on its out side, the next boats go to the inside and thus gains an advantage. What would you do, let it go or disqualify the boats who failed to follow the lead boat?

I looked at the rule NBRA rule book and I don't think there is a rule about this. I think we used to have a rule that people follow the lead boat which I think is a good rule in most cases. No rule will ever be completely black or white covering this but if I am the down boat I sure don't want people going on both sides of me, how dangerous is that with all the spray. Also I think that the boats should go to the outside of the down boat again this will eliminate the spray hiding the down boat. Following the lead boat will stop boats from trying to cut the corner to gain an advantage which I think is wrong. So I would suggest to follow the lead boat and go to the outside of the down boat.

[Hydro doc]

I like the Pro rule, requiring a paddle in the boat. You could paddle out of harms way If you had a paddle. Ping pong paddles cost 6 dollars. As a safety rule, a favor a paddle and requiring the driver to move off the course. We should make it clear to our drivers what is expected. Until then, they will take the shortest route. Most owners have more experience than the drivers, 45 years for me.

[reed28n]

I believe there should be a rule for this one and I am against having as many as we currently do. The rule simply state, "Racing continues if the disabled boat is in a safe position, but if a competitive advantage is gained by a driver using this disabled boat than the heat should be red flagged." We need to keep all the language out about going inside or outsde etc.... it will be a judgement call the same as the judgement to continue racing by the trun judge and referee.

[Hydro doc]

I like the simplicity of this language and is fair.

[Larry M]

This address the problem of competitive advantage but does nothing for driver safety. I care more about staying alive than winning a race. Any time you go to the inside of a boat you have a good chance of hiding the down boat with spray. If you follow the lead boat the competitive advantage is not a issue either.
Larry Mac

[Ram4x4]

Anything that requires a "judgement" call, is by default subjective. The only way for a rule to be objective is to require all drivers to do exactly the same thing, regardless. For example, "All drivers must drive to the outside of a stalled or flipped boat in a corner". No ambiguity, no judgement required.

Of course, then there is the question, yeah, but what if the stalled boat is 100 feet out from the turn buoys? That has potential to introduce ambiguity. The only way to address that is provide an objective means to decide if a boat is far enough out for drivers to turn inside. This might require "Outside turn markers" and if any part of the boat is on that line or outside it, then drivers can go inside. If the stalled boat is not across that outside marker line, then drivers must go outside.

Another possibility is to introduce another flag in the turn boat to indicate inside or outside turning allowed to be flown together with the blue/white flag.

To be sure, it could get tedious if the entire goal is to be 100% objective. The bottom line, I think though, is to balance competitiveness with safety. You just have to decide at what level leaving judgement to a driver outweighs the level of safety you seek.