Chop?

[Hunter]

I think that ,generally, racers do their turn boat duty with little, or no instruction. I also seem to recall that the rules include a pretty straight forward clause about un-safe driving which could and should be applied to behavior in turns. I think a lot of drivers could learn something from most of us in FE. The boats are fast, powerful and carry a lot of iron on the back. They can really hurt you. Most of us respect them and hold lanes really well in the turns. If I go in 10 feet off the pin I will carry that arc all the way around. If you are good enough to go inside that ,I'll get a kick out of seeing it. If you hit someone because you can't turn as well as you thought you could, it is foolish and un-safe and should result in a DQ. I also recall a rule that said that contact should result in a DQ. I don't think I have ever seen that applied.

[22W]

If you really want to see more crashes, go ahead and change it. I guarantee you will see more accidents and fights in inspection. Big/fast boat drivers (DSH/750/850 and Pro) are different. Those guys have respect for each other and the speeds at which they run. A/B/C drivers (and all those other classes we have which are pretty much the same) don't. It is not hard to "go fast and turn left." Any driver worth a darn can do both while keeping an eye on what is going on around them. Donny is a prime example of how to do it right. I can't remember him ever being thrown out for a chop. D2, please call me before you get too serious about this. I will add counterpoints and examples which are best reserved for a more private conversation. Again, I do not disagree that cockpit/cockpit works great for bigger boats. I just don't believe it will in the smaller stuff and I really don't want to see anyone get hurt.

[jswain3]

I agree with Dana & Burdick. We don't need to change our rules, just enforce them correctly. We need the people going out in the turn boats to understand their job. If your paying attention you should be able to make the appropriate call. Not in every situation but in most. Please, stop bringing up comparisons from Alky racing or Tunnels. We do not race these types of boats. I for one have been to many USTS races over the past five years...Like Dana said the only way to come from behind in that category is with 3+ mph on the boats in front of you. This will take away how exciting our races can be in the stock category and also one reason it is my favorite category to watch. As it is now, people push the current rule to the limit & then some. If we now go to 'bow to stern', people will be pushing that rule where it will essentially be 'cockpit to cockpit'. The excuse from the turn boats will be the same..."We didn't have a good angle." Jordy

[pops67g]

It seems that many people have the feeling that as long as you have a rule against something, that something won't happen. In fluid situations like those that occur in racing you can't make some rules cut and dried very easily. Overlap rules are fine and not all that hard to enforce but they become almost redundant if drivers will just LOOK around them and be aware of who is on their inside and determine whether they are gaining or not. Over the years I have made a mental list of guys not to be inside of going into a turn because I know they never look. The disappointing part of this is that some of the drivers on the list are well known and consistent winners.

[dholt]

Dean...to answer your question. I don't feel like chopping has gotten worse over recent years. Nor do I feel like calls are being made less or more.
Seeing a chop is fairly difficult unless it's in lanes 1,2 or 3. Anything outside through spray is basically impossible to see.
As someone pointed out already, the real cause of chops is guys not looking. Whether or not the rule is 1 boat length of open water or bow to transom, you have to turn your **** head in order to see to your left. This isn't rocket science. It only takes a split second to look. The most recent, flagrant chop I received was by a long time, respected driver who NEVER turned his head from the starting line all the way through the 1st turn. My nose was at his cockpit numbers the entire time. Good thing it was in an ASR.

I feel the current rule leads to a little safer racing. Couldn't imagine legally chopping a guy who was 12 inches behind my steering bar. That's dangerous for both of us.

[DiGia54D]

Don't change any rules. Just enforce them. I have been in turn boats with guys that don't even know what class is on the water. Also been in boats that the other person never turned his head to see boats coming into the turn. The rule would be fine as is if people in the turn boats did what they are supposed to do. Once drivers start getting tossed for chopping they will soon stop.

[csh-2z]

Of the three options available to us (cockpt to cockpit, bow to stern and one boat length in between) we are currently using the most dangerous and un-enforceable one. One boat length in between requires the lead driver to take his eyes off of what is in front of him the longest, to look back and determine if there is a boatlength in between. I'd rather he not do that. The trailing boat driver also may believe he has established an overlap, therefore EXPECTING a lane. Many, many times the drivers do not come to the same conclusion.Too much of the responsibility is put on the driver who has to look back to see what's happening.
If we were to go Bow to stern, the lead driver merely has to take a quick glance to see if someone is there or not. Also, now the trailing driver has the responsibility to determine whether he has an overlap or not and can be more confident that the lead driver actually knows he is there because he is more easily seen.
This may also stop people from trying to force an overlap by charging into a turn incapable of being able to hold that inside lane they've chosen.They'll know they have not established an overlap and will have to back off rather than push it, then argue with a driver or turn judge after an incident.
Cockpit to cockpit would our racing into more of a parade than we are now. Our speeds are too close to one another.

[modracer7b]

I'm old, but back in the 60's, the first boat to the turn owned the turn, if a guy was inside the first boat he needed to be in a position to claim a lane even if the first guy chose not to give it. It was pretty clear about who was responsible for what and if a guy went on his head trying to stick his nose where he could not make the move stick, it was his fault. He had a choice to back off or take the chance and it was on him. The only foul would be when someone literally rammed someone out of the way. I always thought that system worked better than what we have had for the past twenty plus years. Also, I intended to make a call at a nationals in 2000 for a driver that crowded another driver into the buoys in the center of a turn, obviously intentional. This was between two prominent drivers both contending for the lead and I was immediately pressured by another prominent driver/official from the same area and a friend of the offending driver that I should not make the call. Because it was the national final and I did not want to determine the champion with a call, I let it go. Fortunately, the offending driver ended up DQ'd for other reasons and justice was served. I verifyed after that I saw what I saw with my brother Ken who was watching from the shore and had another angle and he felt the same as I, that it was an illegal and dirty driving move. I still regret that I did not make that call. That is another problem with too many rules requiring judgement calls.

Bill Rosado

[csh-2z]

When something like that occurs, a non-call screws the guy that got chopped. Your better off DQ'ing the perpetrator

[John Schubert]

I should start by saying Howie & John Runne have said it best in my opinion. I haven't driven a race boat in many years, let alone these very modern boats with offset cockpits, twisted bottoms & many other tricks. However, one thing is still very relative & that is driver ability & capability. The other is the very objectiveness of the turn judges. Let me provide my input on each.
1) Driver ability & capability. If you are the overtaking boat & you are hoping to pass the boat in front of you, the driver depending upon his personal experience as well as his experience racing with & against the driver he is attempting to overtake may consider "what will he do here". Consider this, most drivers will enter the turn a little wide so that the apex of his turn is the middle buoy & close tight on the exit buoy so if you are overtaking a driver who you know drivers in that manner, even if you are faster, you definitely wouldn't attempt to "squeeze" inside, than as Dana said you would have to take the outside route. However, if the driver is known to enter the turn tight than drifts on his exit, the overtaking driver has the right, or should have, to jump the wake & exit the turn inside the boat in front of him even if there isn't a boat length of open water. This supports John Runne's bow to stern rule consideration.
2) Turn judges. I would clearly state that it is extremely difficult for a driver to be accurate in assessing a turn situation regarding the open water issue & interpreting the rule of a boat length of open water. Say a boat is 10', than ask 10 drivers to be in a turn boat, send 2 boats out to simulate a turn, ask each to write down the open water length & chances are they will mostly be different. Than to complicate the issue depending on the angle of the boats going through the turn as to where the turn judges are situated, changes the accuracy tremendously.
Again, bow to stern should be the rule. I should say my father taught my brother & me to drive by lookig left over the throttle & right 90 degrees & if there wasn't a boat there, than it was your turn. Sure that was 1/2 a century ago, but I believe Howie said it right, how can a driver in front know if he had the legal overlap without turning around, very dangerous at whatever speed, & how could he even calculate if the overlap was legal to "close the door", so to speak.