Chop?

[Big Don]

Figured the Topic would get some looks...This seems to be as good a time as any to start this conversation based on some of the other threads. What is everyone’s feelings of going to bow to stern for chops? Or even C0ckpit side to C0ckpit side.

If you have room move over, back to the way it was years ago. The person on the inside would at least know, that it could be coming and be prepared. As it is now, you think, they only has 5 feet and he’s not coming over and then they do and you are not ready for it. It would take all this guess work out of our turn judges having to try and determine if it was a chop. Wouldn’t fix the inside boat not being able to hold it but it would certainly fix a lot of the non-calls and eliminate some other calls that are questionable.

[BROCCOLI]

Cockpit to cockpit. The leading driver should be looking ahead , concentrating on where she/he is going. If the trailing boat wants to make a move , it had best be bold and decisive. And, always say thank you.

[guedo499]

I'll vote for it, but only it D3 proposes it. I race in Pro and OPC - you know the boats are coming over; better do something about it. Or go faster. Or slower.

[guedo499]

BTW, I thought it was a HACK.

[csh12M]

I think I have raced my whole career with the overlap, but going back is an interesting discussion. I feel like things have been getting progressively worse the last 5-10 years. This could also be because I am getting older No one makes a call anymore. The inside boat goes charging in expecting a lane that is not going to be there. If you expected to get chopped you either back off or you better make it to cockpit to cockpit by the pin.

[Tim Weber]

" The inside boat goes charging on the inside for a lane that's not there", good way to describe most turns Dean.

It used to be in the " old " days you wanted the inside lane at the start. With a roll up runabout you got the pin, you usually won the race. I rarely take the inside because unless I get to the turn first, which is tough in a big race, you figure on getting chopped. You have two choices in that situation, run the SOB over or back off.

Since I have to work for a living, it's important not to crash and be ready for work on Monday morning. We all know crashing is no fun and can be real expensive.

My favorite chop has to be a veal chop though.

Tim

[dholt]

While the current system has its flaws, I don't know that the alternatives are any better. Cockpit to cockpit? And end up racing like the Pro's...where it's all "lane" racing and passing is only do-able if you have 3 mph on someone on the outside? No way.
Make it "bow to transom" and eliminate the boat length of open water criteria? Will that really change things? I think that makes it more dangerous. Imagine getting hacked when your bow is at the leading boat's transom. There's nowhere to go but into the leading boat.

At least with the current rule you have some space ahead of you. I fully expect the lane to disappear and I'm prepared for it. But if the leading driver actually obeys the rule...it's like an early Christmas.
No matter what, calls won't get made very often. No one wants to be the bad guy.

[runabout333]

Maybe those in the turn-judge boat should be non-drivers, but with past racing experience.

[csh12M]

In a perfect world that is exactly what it should be.

[csh12M]

Do you think it is getting nastier than it used to be Dana? I just wonder if it is like taking the "fighting" out of hockey. You may not see as many brawls anymore, but without the threat of getting punched in the face the game has gotten dirtier.... not sure just thinking out loud. I think if I knew you would not give an inch I would be more inclined to back down. Maybe we should be allowed to saw some people off, I am not sure it would be any worse than it is now. I did not mean to imply cockpit to cockpit but rather stern to bow. Basically if I can move over without hitting you than I can do it.

[HydroKyle93R]

I see a different problem. Being the 'bad guy' as Dana puts it shows subjective side of being the turn judge. Should I call my buddy? Was it really that close? **** that guy, he chopped me last week... Every corner judge, at some level of consciousness experiences these thoughts. The more objective side of the story, is that most corner judges are placed in positions, usually in the corners they are assigned to judge, where their field of vision is limited to only part of the arc of the corner. One's depth perception is also limited in that wall of water that is viewed. These elements make corner judging exceedingly difficult, or near impossible. Forget being the bad guy: who wants to be the guy with that responsibility??? I'll take the judges stand any day of the week, they usually have snacks. And shade. And no one yells at me.

And the rule:

A. OVERLAP— SO and MO classes. When there is less than one boat length of open water between a leading boat and a following boat, an
overlap is established. In a position of overlap, the following rules shall apply:
1) The front boat shall not alter its course across or into the established path of the rear boat.
2) The outside boat must give the inside boat room to clear any course marker.
3) Any violation of the overlap rules listed above will result in the disqualification of the offending driver for the heat

I think we need an elevated point of view, that is video recorded, to make an objective call. I am aware that video evidence (first or third person POV) can not submitted in the case of a driving infraction. Drones, anyone?

[csh-2z]

I proposed the bow to stern overlap three or four years ago at one of the national meetings. It makes more sense than what we're doing now. As it is today we are asking the lead driver to turn around just before entering he turn to see if there is ten + feet between his stern and the bow of the inside boat. That is too much to analyze in not enough time. I would prefer the lead driver be able to quickly glance to see if anyone is right there then watch where the hell he is going. The responsibility should be on the inside boat. The current rule also encourages people to force the overlap which usually doesn't work out too well. The driver in the inside boat is expecting a lane and the reality is most of the time it's not going to be there.

If you want clearly defined lanes, go bowling!

[greatpumpkin]

Fred Miller said I did'nt look!

[Howie Nichols]

Cockpit to cockpit. There are several reasons, in no particular order.
1. If you are the lead boat and look to your inside as you are suppose to it is a natural tendancy for the steering wheel to turn slightly with you. Its physics and it happens albeit only slightly (in some cases).
2. The turn judges as mentioned have to decipher was that1 boat length or not, with angles of the turn positioning of the turn judge boat it is almost impossible to make that judgement.
3. The rule discusses when the lead boat alters its course you can no longer force an overlap, If I start in lane 12, I can begin to "alter" my course way before the turn (say 150') to sweep the first pin. Does this mean the lane 1 guy can't push it to the pin because he is 1-2 boat lengths back? How do you tell or make this call?
4. The faster boats (PRO / OPC) use this rule as cockpit to cockpit for very good and safer reasons.
5. If its cockpit to cockpit the driver will know (both inside & outside drivers) if there is room, if there is not then a) take your chances or b) back out of it so you can race again the next heat
6. As Kyle said it really takes the subjectivity out of the call, I know I for one along with my family and friends have all been called for the chop when it hasnt even been close.
7. Calls have been made (incorrectly) when the inside boat trys to hold there lane and cannot then they ride the roostertail through the outside boat, the oustside boat is called for the chop and all they did was hold lane 2 all the way through the corner. Its not there fault the inside boat could not hold it in.

I could probably list a dozen more reasons too, but I will stop here. I know as a prospective commissioner for 2015 I for 1 will push for this change to make it safer / fairer racing for all involved.

[PittmanRacing]

In OPC the rule is cockpit to cockpit and I never heard any argument or debate. We also had capsules so it seems logical. Looking back to assure 1 boat length is nearly impossible, means you are not looking forward, and changes in judgement based on angle. I have only had one driver clearly make that judgement which was Will Smooth at nationals. Kudos to Will. I say bow to stern or cockpit to cockpit. Both drivers and turn judges can call that more accurately.

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

As a corner judge I am always looking to make a call. I often work the corners but so far this is as close as I have been to making a call. It was a big record race and there was what I felt was a first turn chop. That driver was well known and did win the heat as well he should have. The call would have changed the outcome and while there was no incident I still felt that overlap had not been established. I radioed the barge and conveyed my concerns and said that if any of the drivers felt they had been chopped I would stand behind it. I think the drivers were asked because it was relayed back to me that all drivers felt it was clean.
Perhaps others are hesitant to make calls not wanting to influence the outcome of a race? I am a big believer in "let them run" but if something is questionable? Perhaps some kind of system could be developed making it easier for turn judges to say something without taking the guy out from the patrol boat.
The one time I went for the "Hack" someone got hurt, I always leave a lane, but you only get one lane.