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Maybe this will be more readable.
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First - Original Topic, please check APBA technical manual for 2013 entrants by class in PRO. It is a little discouraging, but predictable given USTS' decision to change sanctioning body. But, that change does not explain precipitous decline in OSY 400 numbers (long time largest APBA PRO class) or continued decline in antique division.
Second - Regardless of sanctioning body, there exists an opportunity for better scheduling of events so as to avoid back-to-back weekends for major races. I believe this applies as much in the Mod Division as the PRO Division.
Third - Do we have too many options? Personally, I enjoy a few local races each season, especially when I can travel less than 7 hours to attend a race. Series Racing can create some great "pop" in terms of promotion and quality of events. I am not convinced that it draws in enough new racers. I support the driving schools around the country that are exposing interested parties to the actual in-boat experience.
Fourth - I believe the key to our future in outboard racing lies in cooperation, coexistence, inclusion, attracting new competitors & volunteers and having a Rational category and class structure.
Finally, I have been involved with this sport my entire life. The numbers and classes ebb and flow. Big events and a well planned calendar draw boats! I am sure many east coasters and midwesterners recall the the large season ending races at Camden, NC. No conflicts, point battles, great course and a great party pulled in all kinds of boats. Downside, we raced all day. Upside, it was a great finish to the season, We even had 500 runabouts, a bunch of D mod runabouts, PRO capsule hydro's, OPC's and inboard classes at different times. Loch Haven has a similar place now. I am sure that many other do as well. I am not convinced that Series racing drove down PRO numbers. PRO numbers were somewhat tied to the success of mixed outboard racing in Region 5. There is maybe one combined outboard race in Region 5 now.David WeaverComment
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Don't worry about original topic, original poster, Dave; it's your thread or anyone else's. Personally, I think the riffs and digressions make for more interesting conversations. Again, the USTS idea started from a suggestion that we get a Series races out here, which prompted my idea about a combined no-points USTS/NBRA club race as a local experiment and a chance for those organizations to show what they have to offer the West Coasters, who currently have somewhat specific needs that are only addressed with combined stock/mod/alky races. USTS and NBRA advocates tell us their organizations are superior to APBA and pulling away, and they appear to have a good case. They could be on the West Coast, but I think they would have to show the adaptability I'm suggesting.
Fan 1, your second try isn't readable at all on my laptop. But the article is on BRF, so no problem.
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Originally posted by David Weaver View Post
David,
Couple questions, is what the NBRA does by adding one or two pro classes onto the schedule at Centrallia really any different that what APBA Pro does at races such as Lockhaven ? Adding 125 and 250. I believe the local racing you speak of is only a couple classes. So essentially we are doing the same thing. Am I understanding your points ? Not trying to compare organizations or say one is better than the other.Dave Mason
Just A Boat Racer
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I don't believe David mentions NBRA in his post at all. He said regardless of sanctioning body to start his second point. I know for a fact he just wants to race and supports who ever runs 250cch. He is also a member of both NBRA and APBAsigpicWayne DiGiacomoComment
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Sorry Smitty , tried to upsize it but it isn't working on all computers. Mr Baldwin has a lot of good points in his letter , many that still hold true today. Would you not agree that travel expenses are one of the main factors that keep guys from traveling from coast to coast to participate in what will always be just an expensive hobby ?
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See, that's what I said, racingfan1.Originally posted by ProHydroRacer View Post
And for about the fifth time, I was responding to this post by ProHydroRacer, mercguy. I started out asking how to find class participation numbers, broken down in various ways, as was once available in the APBA printed yearbook (and got my answer, too).
Everybody is very pleased that SOA is doing well overall, but some of us have particular interests, and putting a thousand C Stock Hydros on the water is great but maybe not the whole answer to those who have a different notion of racing equipment. Some oldster on another thread was complaining that putting the toilet bowl exhaust on the Mk20H in 1959 ruined it and made it harder to find race sites because of the noise. That guy's idea of getting the numbers up was for new guys to be able to buy and race boats and motors right off the floor of the local marina, complete with gearshifts and electric start. I responded that fifty years ago, when I went to a spring Stock-only race on Lake Lawrence, it was the wonderful roar of the B Stockers that turned me on (and got me to order a set of "Jupiter" plans from Hal Kelly for twelve bucks). I further said that if there had been nothing but the quiet Stock classes at that race, I would have forgotten outboards and got into Inboards, which had open pipes and sounded like racing equipment should sound. It wouldn't have been a stock Inboard class either, with their piddly little single carb on a log manifold, and their weak-sounding stock cams; any car guys who had done a little drag racing and walked through the Inboard pits at Greenlake just laughed at the 145s and 280s of that day. Well, I got some immediate agreement with that opinion from several old-timers. Don't get me wrong, mercguy; recently I also related that all the Reg. 10 drivers of that time, no matter how big, fast, and loud their class was, would stop what they were doing to watch the A Stock Hydro guys go at it. The competition in A Stock in the Sixties was ferocious, but an all-Stock race wouldn't be appealing to some . . . NOR would an all-alky USTS race be an optimal situation for the tastes of most of us out here (as I also said two or three times in this thread).
mercguy, I'm not particularly plugging USTS or advocating the abandonment of APBA (as some here do). But I don't know why competition between the two organizations, with their own races out here, could be a bad thing. Maybe it is; Bill Boyes stated above that USTS killed alky racing in California and I hope he will talk some more about that. I will say that if you talk to some of the real old codgers in SOA, they will tell you that since at least the early-'70s there has been some level of dissension about APBA's costs vs. value.
Last edited by Smitty; 08-30-2014, 09:01 AM.
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Originally posted by bill boyes View Post
Bill:
I would be very much interested in how you have determined and/or why you feel that USTS Series racing has killed PRO racing in Ca. I raced PRO from 1968 until the early 2000's by attending 12-14 races a season, and very seldom saw a "C" number at any races east of the rocky mountains, along with the other regions west of them also. The one exception was at DePue for the APBA nationals, and sometimes at Alex in the 70's, Bill Rucker would show up for F Hydro.
I would really like to know how you came to this conclusion when your region members hardly ever made a trip to run/race in the midwest. Just what bad effect did USTS have on PRO racing except to save it, when most other categories including those in the east and midwest seem to be losing members and unable to do anything about it. As Ron Hill says, and I quote, " APBA Circling the Drain".
I see it exactly the opposite, as USTS has basically saved PRO racing east of the Rockies. Not to say it is in great shape, but certainly healthier, IMHO, that many other forms of boat racing that have to have multiple categories and run all day just to pay expenses for sanction, insurance and officials.
Not trying to be argumentative in any way, just do not understand your comment or way of thinking. You may not remember or even be aware, but the PRO Commission, at the time it was basically controlled by regions west of the Rockies, were invited to have their own USTS program. If I remember correctly they turned it down because of multiple category racing, or possibly a number of other reasons, BUT there was never any interest in an affiliation. That (multiple category racing) is against USTS By-Laws, and in the majority of members opinions is strongly supported, and is one of the main reasons for the success, as we do not have to run all day and are able to keep the spectators interested with a fast paced two day program that allows all the strong PRO classes to be scheduled.. In addition USTS has always provided what the majority of racers have seemed to want, either prize money to help pay expenses, or in more recent times, tow money that allows help with expenses with getting to and from the races.
I would not disagree that PRO racing in California is on life support, if not deceased, but to blame USTS when there have been opportunities to affiliate in the past, seems to be sour grapes. And if the reason has anything to do with USTS members coming west to run in exactly the type multiple category racing I have described that they do not want, then I have always thought like the guy in the cornfield said when saw the completed baseball diamond, "Build it and they will come"!Last edited by bill van steenwyk; 08-30-2014, 11:06 PM.Comment
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REGION 11 PRO RACING WAS HANGING FROM YEAR TO YEAR. THE BACKBONE OF RACERS THAT RAN PRO DECIDED TO RUN THE USTS RACES. FOR VARIOUS REASONS TIME AND EXPENSE SOMETHING HAD TO GIVE AND IT WAS THE LOCAL RACE. i AM NOT KNOCKING THE USTS. JUST STATING MY OPINION. -
Bill:
Read my first and second paragraph again. I do not remember and I challenge you to name, any large number of Ca. racers, that came across the Rockies to run USTS races from the inception of USTS to present time. DePue yes, when it was an APBA Nats, but not the regular USTS racing program that started in the early 80's. You will have to come up with another reason for the failure of PRO in your region, in my opinion.Last edited by bill van steenwyk; 08-31-2014, 10:35 AM.
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Here are the enteries by class at the 1972 and 1974 PRO nationals as taken from the eliminations heat sheets - 1972------ ARR 21 boats , CSR 20 boats , DOH 25 boats , CRR 19 boats , CSH 18 boats , BRR 16 boats , FOH 13 boats , AOH 55 boats , COH 31 boats , BOH 36 boats , DRR 13 boats and FRR 10 boats. 1974------ AOH 43 boats , BOH 35 boats , COH 38 boats , DOH 23 boats , FOH15 boats , CSH 26 boats , ARR 22 boats , BRR 16 boats , CRR 16 boats , DRR 19 boats , FRR 14 boats , CSR 25 boats , John Ward Trophy race 32 boats.
Safe to say there will never be boat counts like this again., which is a shame !
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I didn't know about those by-laws, Bill. But my guess is that if the USTS wanted to establish itself on the West coast, or Reg.10 anyway, it would have to be adaptable to local conditions, at least for a couple of years. Maybe your "If you build it" challenge could work, but it's harder to travel cross-country than it was when you guys started the Title Series, so I'm guessing that there'd have to be a further semi-professionalism of the sport, the prospect of more than just tow-money, for people to drop everything to spend a week and a half driving 3500 miles every few weekends. Yes, if there was a USTS points-race out here, a good many mid-west and east coast racers would take the opportunity to come out one time just because they haven't done the trip before. But after that??
Incidently, several here have suggested that combined-category schedules have "too many classes" and "run too long." Too long for whom? The spectators? They come and go when they want. A boatrace is not a football game or a movie with a beginning, a middle, and an end that are identifiable. It's more like a big summer sausage that is the same all the way through, and you slice off the chunk you want. The races have always been adapted to fit the requirements of the surrounding community. Beyond that, why not run off as many classes as you can in the time allotted?
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Bill Van, Gouldstone,Rucker, Fucshlin and a few more. Not many were left.
Bill, I will not get into any more arguments with seems enjoy picking fights.bill bComment
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Originally posted by DiGia54D View Post
Wayne,
I wasn't trying to be comparing the org's or anything, just wanted to see if I was understanding David correctly. I think what we do adding a class or two on at a local race is very similar. I believe that is is a great idea and should be done more anyway. As long as time allows. It all depends on participation in a region and their desire to do it. Lockhaven is a good example. it works for them, and have a few interested parties to run a couple PRO classes.
I have said a few times before and still believe this. In the end, we are all just boat racers who want to have fun and support grass roots style kneelers.
I would highly reccomend the west coasters put Pro classes on at events if time permits and you can draw enough boats. We all want seat time, why else would we spend this much money for 3- 5 minutes on the water !Dave Mason
Just A Boat Racer
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Originally posted by bill boyes View Post
Bill:
As I made very clear in my post, I was NOT trying to be argumentative with you in any way, BUT when someone who has been active in APBA politics as long as you, and when you have the background you do as a Region official, to say that the three drivers you named and have participated in several USTS races during the time USTS has been in existence, led to the demise of PRO racing in California, borders on the ridiculous.
I know or am familiar with the three drivers named, and can state that except for possibly the race that preceded the DePue Nationals, namely Constantine, Mi., very few, if any, others ventured to the Midwest for USTS races other than the ones mentioned. Constantine was somewhat special for the reason it was the week prior to DePue for just that reason, so as to provide the West Coast drivers for another race to both "tune up" and provide a little more bang for the buck on the trip east. In addition, USTS suspended their own by-laws at Constantine for several races by scheduling 1100 Runabout, and possibly another class that was popular with the CA drivers and any other West Coast folks that wanted the "tune up" for the Nationals I mentioned earlier. Tom Gouldstone for instance, was a friend of mine, as we both had RB's and participated in the class and promoted it when it first started, and I know he was at DePue for the Nationals, but do not remember him anywhere else during the time frame you speak of.
I only "pick fights" as you put it, with others who for whatever reason try to bend the truth for their own purposes. I do not know you well enough to make that distinction myself, so will leave it to you as to your motives. What you might find interesting is several of your region members in PM's to me have said the same thing, namely that USTS had nothing to do with the decline of PRO racing in your region. There were some reasons given, but to avoid embarrassment to anyone perhaps you might want to take a poll of your members for their opinions, as I will not repeat them (reasons).
I am sure with the scarcity of race water in Ca., low number of PRO drivers to start with, environmental issues, etc., you have not had an easy time scheduling ANY racing in Ca. for the last 10 years or so., but take your frustrations out where they belong, as they DO NOT belong with USTS.
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The west coast does put pro on the schedules...the problem is that there is very few Pro guys on either coast. Here in the North East you can count on 2 hands total pro rigs.. Me, Eric & Mike 250cch. Jones, Tenney, Cronin and Pearsol 125cch. Closest 250 is Travis Ellison 10hrs away. Closest 125 Kristi. So this is not just a west coast issuesigpicWayne DiGiacomoComment
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Dave M.I am primarily suggesting that we should consider coordinating the largest races, regardless of sanctioning bodies. Better spacing may help participation for all. As to local vs. series racing, I still enjoy both. In terms of numbers of participants in general, gasoline prices are about 300% of what 1994 gasoline prices were. That hurts travel.
Bill Boyes, I believe the Region 11 PRO drivers you speak of included Fuchslins, Hoots, Johnsons, Suftins, and Gesslers. Fuchslin racing was sidetracked by an expanding family and work for Paul. Ray Hoot had a bad flip testing at home (350 Hydro) and sold everything. Brad Gessler quit driving and Derek moved to Minnesota for school/work and is still racing. JJ and Alan no longer had classes for their runabouts and found over things to do. I am not sure how the USTS caused any of this. These drivers and teams did support USTS races in Omaha, Winona, Hammond, Constantine and DePue. Those were good times! I believe they always kept an eye of the local schedule, however, as they wanted to see racing grow on the West Coast. Loss of venues may also discouraged some Region 11 drivers.
Wayne, do not forget about the Augustines, DiFebo;s, etc.
The general tone of this thread needs to be more constructive in my opinion. I tried to do that with my original comments.
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