Numbers

[Smitty]

I'm old and fairly stupid as a computer user, so this info is probably easy to come by for you internet-savvy guys. I can't find any place on the APBA site where they list numbers of registered participants by racing class and by region, for stock/mod/pro, Inboard, OPC. I don't NEED any of it, just got curious.

Forty-five years ago all of this was neatly broken down in the APBA printed handbook that a member received along with a rulebook every year. All of the competition and kilo records for all divisions and classes were in there as well, plus national and region points, mailing addresses of every member, all sorts of info, IN A USER-FRIENDLY FORMAT, i.e., A PRINTED BOOK (sorry, but you computer guys know from nothing about user-friendly!!!)(grump, grump).

Presumably USTS has some numbers, too . . . .

[Mark 72@E]

I'm old and fairly stupid as a computer user, so this info is probably easy to come by for you internet-savvy guys. I can't find any place on the APBA site where they list numbers of registered participants by racing class and by region, for stock/mod/pro, Inboard, OPC. I don't NEED any of it, just got curious.

The closest you'll get today is to go to the APBA website, click on SCHEDULE & RESULTS towards the top (in between MULTIMEDIA and ABOUT APBA), then select HIGH POINTS in the menu that appears next. If you select a previous year, 2013 for example, as the racing year for whatever Category and Class you want you will see the name of EVERY racer who raced that class in that year including those who only raced once. It may not include everyone REGISTERED for that class because some may not have actually raced in that class for that year. But it will definitely show you who was ACTIVE in the class for that year. It makes an interesting study.

The old rule books were good. As a teenager I thought it was cool to be listed in the same membership section along with some of the all-time greats in the sport. But times have changed and there are new privacy laws in place. Call me paranoid, but my opinion is that it is best for us not to have a comprehensive list of our physical addresses which is the same thing as saying THIS IS WHERE WE KEEP OUR EXPENSIVE RACING EQUIPMENT.

[Bill Huson]

I think that's a paranoid view, since aforementioned expensive racing equipment is so unusual it would be near impossible for a common thief to fence. And I'm not sure privacy laws have much effect in the lack of info - I believe it is because the APBA is embarrassed at the low numbers in a shrinking sport.

[Smitty]

Thanks Mark: I found some of what I was after, though there's not the range of information that the old book had.

I wasn't actually advocating a return to giving out racers' addresses, just pointing that out as part of the mass of information that was readily available in the book. Bill, raceboats and equipment do get stolen, whether successfully fenced or not, and in any case I can see Mark's point that addresses ought to be made available at the option of the individual, what with all of the hackers around the world trying to steal anything they can find on us. As to the shrinking sport, I agree! I was amazed at the low numbers of registered PRO racers. Maybe most of the dedicated PRO folk have gone over to the USTS (which unfortunately is not a practical option for racers in the West or even Texas, with the cost of fuel for long trips today). I think I just saw that there were something like 83 total class entries at the APBA PRO Nationals just completed, which was actually UP slightly from the previous year. In the 1960s there might have been that many boats at an APBA or NOA nationals just in AOH and BOH alone!

[Guest]

"Maybe most of the dedicated PRO folk have gone over to the USTS (which unfortunately is not a practical option for racers in the West or even Texas, with the cost of fuel for long trips today)."

Sure it is! Run a US Title Series Sanction Race. Cheaper than APBA.

[Smitty]

Well this is somewhat changing the subject, but okay, how is it realistic to do this? One USTS race, once a year, on the coast, and specifically in the Northwest, since
California alky racing seems to be dead as a doornail. How many the the USTS drivers would come out here from the midwest and Northeast, spending most of two weeks away from home and work, spending $1500 and up on fuel, for one race? And for our part, at this point we run only 125ccH, 350ccH, 1100R, and the Antique runabout classes. The big alky hydros here were killed off by the capsule rule; small alky runabouts disappeared in the mid-'70s.

Region 10 outboard racing survives by running combined races with Stock, Mod, and PRO classes. We have always done it that way, in fact we LIKE it that way for the variety (and to get some breaks from the unmuffled classes, sounds that we very much like, but not all day long). In my opinion (subject to change, given better ideas from anybody), if USTS wants to expand its footprint (and it should; I looked at their numbers), it could build on its new connection with NBRA to provide for combined Stock/Mod/PRO racing around the country. These would not have to be actual Title Series points races. What it would be is head to head competition with APBA, which should be a good thing for racers.

I tried to interest the head of USTS with this idea via a PM, but got no reaction for or against.

[DiGia54D]

They would come if they had a USTS race out on the west coast. 90% of the Pro guys are in the mid west. They make Florida every year, so going the other way would not be an issue. 4 years ago they came to Hartford, CT if I am correct, Other than the Schmidt boys, Jones and Tenney who live in CT they closest driver was about a 15 hour drive.

[Fastjack]

Jack ran K pro and I ran 125H at Hartford ====I wish that it was still a USTS race -- close to home for us Mainers

[DiGia54D]

They still want to run at Hartford. Hopefully they will again.

[Dave M]

Well this is somewhat changing the subject, but okay, how is it realistic to do this? One USTS race, once a year, on the coast, and specifically in the Northwest, since
California alky racing seems to be dead as a doornail. How many the the USTS drivers would come out here from the midwest and Northeast, spending most of two weeks away from home and work, spending $1500 and up on fuel, for one race? And for our part, at this point we run only 125ccH, 350ccH, 1100R, and the Antique runabout classes. The big alky hydros here were killed off by the capsule rule; small alky runabouts disappeared in the mid-'70s.

Region 10 outboard racing survives by running combined races with Stock, Mod, and PRO classes. We have always done it that way, in fact we LIKE it that way for the variety (and to get some breaks from the unmuffled classes, sounds that we very much like, but not all day long). In my opinion (subject to change, given better ideas from anybody), if USTS wants to expand its footprint (and it should; I looked at their numbers), it could build on its new connection with NBRA to provide for combined Stock/Mod/PRO racing around the country. These would not have to be actual Title Series points races. What it would be is head to head competition with APBA, which should be a good thing for racers.

I tried to interest the head of USTS with this idea via a PM, but got no reaction for or against.

Smitty,

This is already being done in NBRA. In fact, this weekend the 125CCH is on the schedule with the Mod/Stock classes at the NBRA race in Centrallia IL. We have done this since USTS came over to NBRA. Hoever, one caution I advise is to think long and hard about the event, both they USTS and the NBRA put on events, these are structured in such a way that it appeals to a sponsor, and fans alike. IE we don't race sun up to sun down. We can run off an entire days schedule of all classes in a 4 hour window if needed. This of course is barring any incidents unforeseen. If we start combining the two events into one, we have APBA all over again. I don't think that is where we want to go, long days and worn out volunteers. In the NBRA there is a rule that allows for a max of 2 special event classes at any race. 125CCH at Centrallia is considered a special event. So was the APBA class we added at Mtn Home AR.

I think we should build on what we have, and not go changing things up anymore.

[Smitty]

Interesting.

I'm just saying what I think might be the only way to get USTS out here and competing with APBA (theoretically competition between these bodies should improve them both). For now, as I understand it, most of the Reg. 10 alky racers, at least those west of the Cascades, are more-or-less-commited APBA members, and I don't think any of them went to DePue this year. Maybe one or two of them will comment here. I do know that there has been some level of dissatisfaction with APBA dating back at least to the mid-'70s, but so far not enough to get a movement going to bring in USTS just for one or two races.

As to the schedules, and long days, Seattle Outboard seems to have a pretty good handle on running a boatrace. I agree that if SOA had to run a combined Stock/Mod/PRO schedule that included ALL of the USTS classes, in a USTS points race, there'd be a problem. But if it were a combined USTS/NBRA race that included only the locally-supported classes, it certainly would be do-able.

[bill boyes]

In my opinion Series racing or USTS has killed pro racing in Calif, 45ss is also dead in Region 11 due to Series racing.

[DiGia54D]

45ss on the east coast has been dead some 20+ years.The last people I saw run that class was Dave Dewald and Howie Nichols and that was a long long time ago.
I agree and disagree with Pro in APBA. But like I have said in other posts. Other than the west coast, I have never ever seen a Pro runabout class 125cc-500ccr on any stock/Mod/Pro schedule since I started in 1986. On the East coast in recent years North Carolina has been running 250cch.

[Dave M]

Interesting.

I'm just saying what I think might be the only way to get USTS out here and competing with APBA (theoretically competition between these bodies should improve them both). For now, as I understand it, most of the Reg. 10 alky racers, at least those west of the Cascades, are more-or-less-commited APBA members, and I don't think any of them went to DePue this year. Maybe one or two of them will comment here. I do know that there has been some level of dissatisfaction with APBA dating back at least to the mid-'70s, but so far not enough to get a movement going to bring in USTS just for one or two races.

As to the schedules, and long days, Seattle Outboard seems to have a pretty good handle on running a boatrace. I agree that if SOA had to run a combined Stock/Mod/PRO schedule that included ALL of the USTS classes, in a USTS points race, there'd be a problem. But if it were a combined USTS/NBRA race that included only the locally-supported classes, it certainly would be do-able.

Smitty,

If we combined NBRA/USTS schedules for a race day that would make the race day 12 hours long. While we all get along, we both have our own ways of doing things. We should be culling classes that are similar in speed and appearance and making the class structure smaller not larger. More boats in fewer classes makes for the most exciting racing seen today. If you give a newbie a choice of 27 classes to run do you think they will not have a spinning head ? Give them a choice of 5 or 6 and it becomes more realistic to them. And to the fans. This is something the USTS and the NBRA do well, is draw spectators. We go where they want boat racing. Sometimes this means poor pits or a not so great course, but as racers we suck it up and put on a show for them. I have yet to attend an NBRA event where there were not a bunch of spectators. I think that is at the most very basic level how you get the racer numbers back up. And of course talk Ray Rodda into announcing.

[Smitty]

Come on, Dave, you said the same thing before. And as I replied, I don't, do not, suggest running a schedule with ALL of the USTS/NBRA classes. When ProHydroRacer suggested that West Coasters could try to get a USTS race out here, I started this digression, which relates to my original topic interest in numbers of racers per class, etc.. I said that as of now we only support some of the alky classes, and that any race here has to run a combination of Stock/Mod/Pro classes, but that it works well for Reg. 10, and therefore I thought maybe a combined USTS/NBRA non-points race with only the locally-popular classes could be the way to get ProHydroRacer's suggestion implemented. I am skeptical of what some above have said about the regular USTS members driving all the way out here if it were a points race. Certainly some would, but look at USTS' own class numbers, fellas; would we want to run several heats with four-boat fields because your guys didn't all make the drive and we don't have anybody in the classes? That's why I think it would have to start as a non-points, limited schedule of classes . . . and then if people here perceive it as an improvement on what APBA delivers, it could become more and more popular.

Dave, in the Sixties, ten classes of Stock hydros and runabouts (incl. J) and nine of ten alky hydro and runabout classes, total 19 classes, were regularly scheduled during an approximately sixteen race (IIRC) season. But they were not all scheduled for every racing weekend. A class with only half a dozen active racers, such as A Racing Runabout, would only be scheduled for six or seven races, whereas a big class with eliminations like B Stock Hydro would probably be run at every race. It worked fine, with lots of racers and lots of spectators. The guys in small classes such as ARR had no beef with it, generally because they also had equipment to run another class, and could run nearly every weekend. Ideally you'd want every heat at every race to have 12 boats. But you can't start the process with 12 boats.

For example, there are at least a few guys who would like to see 175ccH become an active class out here; it's fast but not too fast and doesn't accelerate too hard, the twin-opposed engines don't shake themselves apart like the 125cc singles want to do, and so on. But the guys who want to do this aren't going to commit to spending a few thousand dollars for 175cc equipment until a few others agree to make the same commitment. I think it will probably happen, but at first there will only be three or four 175s, and they'll have to run in the 350cc heats. When they can field six or seven boats, they'll get to race by themselves. And so on, with the hope of becoming a big class. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this process, and disagree with all of the people who want to reduce and pre-emptively restrict the number of classes. I disagree with someone who would say, "What, 175 Hydro? Another class? Forget it, you have to run 125 or 350, or forget it." Again, we used to have 19 active classes out here, we didn't run them all at a race, it was no problem at all.

Small outboard racing is, as of now, a participants' sport and a family sport, not the spectators' sport. The participants are paying for it all, as they have for the 45 years I know about. Yeah, it sure would be nice to get more spectators, more press interest, more sponsor money. One of the reasons to have the USTS show what they can do out here is that USTS seems to be slowly trying to work the sport in that direction. But as I look (thanks again, Mark) at the participant numbers (my interest is mainly in the alky classes) in both APBA and USTS, those numbers are as yet very small.

Yak, yak, yak, yak; sorry, got carried away.

[Dave M]

Smitty, that is an interesting viewpoint. However, at this point I think we are doing pretty good with what we have going. It is stable, and we get paid tow money, prize money sometimes, and there are usually plenty of spectators, and yes, we try to show for them. That's all i am saying, we have taken steps to try and grow our organization from outside the normal cross over from other orgs. And it is working decent at this time. It takes more than a few years to build something huge. And with growing comes new challanges. We are trying to be proavticve instead of reactive. So let me ensure you, USTS and NBRA are growing. We are not falling behind in that sense. It just takes time so that no toes are stepped on.

At any rate, I will digress and let this thread go the direction you want.

[racingfan1]

Here is an article from the 1973 Autumn edition of Hydroplane Quarterly. In the first paragraph it states that there were issues with the numbers in some of the alky classes on the west coast even back then. So I dug a bit deeper and looked at the heat sheets from the 1972 and 1974 PRO nationals and it wasn't until I got down to the bigger classes , C - D - F back then , that the number of participants from the west coast increased. The C service and C Racing classes have always had good numbers. I guess a more telling number might be the number of entries in the western divisionals from those years , but as the article states it appears it was low back then. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Race directors have to schedule classes to put on a good program for the racers and spectators as well and if that means in some regions it includes stock , mod and pro classes then so be it. Maybe some of he more seasoned racers could compare but the cost of racing from the golden years in the 60's and 70's to now. It seems to be the biggest obstacle in growing the sport today in any region.