APBA Winter Nationals Procedurally Wrong

[ryan_4z]

I'm not sure I understand how you could apply for a full APBA membership after the event was held and have your race performance be retroactive so as to secure points etc. Maybe I'm missing something.

I don't think this will be the case, at least I certainly hope not, but we need clarification from Ed. A Single Event member, if they win, would not be considered Winter National Champion, and would not get bonus points. Therefore if there is no Champion, it would be impossible to join later, and claim that title, as it is now non-existant.

[DougMc]

After reading all the posts here, I cannot hold out any longer. I am so excited to see this race take place. I have raced all three sanctioning organizations and have loved doing it. I love to race against new competition whether I get beat or win. This race has a great opportunity to bring people together who have not raced against each other. This is a first class race site and I am so exicited I am going to test this weekend even though the last three mornings were 32 degrees. Maybe we could shift the conversation from the political arena to who is going to kick whose butt. I can't wait to see my friends from Oklahoma have to race against the likes of Billy Allen, Scott Clark, Shannon Bowman, Dean Sutherland,Joe Pater, Gary Lewis, Kevin Ladd, etc. in the CSH. But I also cannot wait for my friends in DMH up North to have to hook up with Kevin McAFee, Vernon Barfield, and Bryan Tharp. If you guys don't know who these guys are, you better be doing your homework. They got some stuff that is hauling a** and they can drive. The FEH battle is going to be awesome. I have watched the last 3 APBA Nationals in this class. AGain wait to you meet Ralph Cook and Vernon Barfield down on their home turf. Also all you BMH guys there is a father/son team that live in Alexandria/Pineville that have two 25 mod HYdros that are hauling and will have a major home field advantage. I am so excited to see these battles, and what can come from this race. So lets talk racing and minimize the politics. Thanks to those who have worked to make this happen.

Rick Miller
34-0

Hey, wait a minute ... I may change my mind on this whole thing now.

If fast NBRA and AOF guys like Rick Miller are coming to race, maybe Fitsracing has a point - let's stop them. I really don't want to race against fast guys like Rick Miller.

Rick aren't you they guy with that slick move of being on the outside and diving on the inside to pass. You whopped by me at the '04 AOF Nats with that one, and I'm still smarting. Your too good to race with us APBA guys. Please stay home!

http://www.superlaugh.com/1/bluechicken.htm

[race4kaos]

Geeez...

You guys whine more than me !! I like to argue with Ed about nearly everything - it's a challenge and keeps the brain sharp.
But come on, he tries to help the sport - not just complain in some internet forum.

In order to get the 2 whole HOC points (and 800 racing pts) at the Winter Nationals, you have to win it. Nothing is different here. No one is taking these away from you. You need to have done your homework, some luck, and 2 good starts...

It sounds like this race has GREAT potential. Stop casting a dark shadow over it. You're just making people second guess going. I know I could stay home and have fun snowmobiling. Or I could head south and defend some titles. Who knows what I'll do (actually, only Kelly). Might be nice to see the Millers and McCafees from back in my early days.

I don't quite understand why there is a rule that you can't join APBA for a single event at a Championship race. Why wouldn't we want more members (even if temporary) and their $$ ? If I were Ed, I might have tried to get rid of this rule permanently. Who does it benefit? - the guy that's not the best/fastest that would otherwise win...?

[14-H]

When I was a commission (duration 5 years) any thing that could effect or change a rule, first had a motion, then a second, than discussion and then commission vote.

From what is indicated by the stock minutes this did not occur. .

Kevin: First, in procedural law (Robert's Rules) there is such a creature as "unanimous consent" or adoption "by acclamation", in that a matter is brought before a body and, if there is no opposition or even any need for discussion, time is not wasted in going through this.

Second, the SORC and MORC or any Racing Commission for that matter, have no authority to make decisions with regard to APBA By Laws. This is the jurisdiction of the BOD during its meetings and the members when the annual meeting is in session.

Finally, besides being the SO Chairman, I'm also a member. I took the matter to the BOD and did what I did to help this race because I believe, in the long run, it will be good for all of kneel-down racing including APBA kneel-down racing.

You really should have been at the Annual Meeting to voice your opposition to this event: you'd have been the lone voice in the crowd.

Ed.

[14-H]

***I like to argue with Ed about nearly everything - it's a challenge and keeps the brain sharp.
:

Kevin: (the one in Michigan); stop trying to suck-up!

[race4kaos]

Fast Eddie...

To clarify: [I hope] The first "Kevin:" post wasn't to me...

Secondly, I also hope I don't have to 'suck-up' to anyone. I have the rules and outlined procedure on my side. But that's a whole other discussion...

Besides, I think you know we are well beyond the point of sucking up to one another...

[Matt Dagostino]

Here, Here!!

.
I don't quite understand why there is a rule that you can't join APBA for a single event at a Championship race. Why wouldn't we want more members (even if temporary) and their $$ ? If I were Ed, I might have tried to get rid of this rule permanently. Who does it benefit? - the guy that's not the best/fastest that would otherwise win...?

4m
My late great friend and engine builder Harold Barnes use to say he never saw a group more intent on passing rules to penalize each other more than we do!! I often wondered why we can't get rid of this counterproductive rule also. Case in point. My racing teammate Dave Riser who got relocated to Atlanta to run the FBI District Office was so busy this year that he could not race. With some arm twisting he was able to come to the Stock Nationals at Dayton knowing this would be his only chance to 'get away' all summer. Not only couldn't he get a single event membership but APBA headquarters informed him that in order to compete he had to become a full member and pay a substantial 'late fee' for not joining at the beginning of the racing year!! He basically wound up paying over $200 to join APBA for one race!!

Kevin is correct. If people like Riser want to come out once a year to race, why not make it easier............not more difficult to do so!!! Rules are great, but need tweaking sometimes to fit the times. Kevin, I think this rule was instituted years ago to prevent or try to discourage guys like Don Pontius (before your time) from coming out once a year at the Nationals and waxing everyone!! Maybe Young Hearn should have tried to wipe out the rule permanenatly as you suggested.

See you in the first turn

Later.

[fitsracing]

For all who have been following this thread and rendering your own conclusions. At NO time did I imply that a combination APBA, AOF and NBRA race or championship should not occur.

My concerns were with how this race was "Procedurally Wrong" pertaining how the rules we comply with were changed without commission or membership approval. (concerns over membership requirements, impact on HOC and high points awards and possible tech issues). And it could impact "each" indivual member including myself.

Any statement made was after reading the Stk and Mod minutes and conversations with Stock commissioners, Modified Commissioners the Modified Chairman a brief conversation with APBA approved inspector and several racing peers.


Ed

In response to your post.

I'm not an attorney and I believe the majority of both the Stock and Mod commissions are not attorneys. Also this is not a court of law. Therefore to quote "Roberts Rules", unanimous consent or adoption by acclamation is not an adequate defense.

Based on my experience of how a commission operates when it came to a proposal and or a rule change there was a motion made , then the motion was second, then discussion, followed by a commission vote. Depending what the proposal was, it was then put out for a driver vote.

There is no mention of a combined organization event anywhere in both the Stk and Mod minutes and consequently no vote.

Explain how 2 stk commissioners, 1 mod commissioner and the Mod Chair who were all in attendence told me that this matter was not brought up at the meeting.


My biggest concern is that rules which govern us all have been changed with what appears to be no notification to the members or the commission.

This is not about what your intent was. This is based on my experience that "procedually" this was not obtained properly.

Show me some evidence to support that accepted policy, protocol and procedure was adhered to so myself and all the members can be assured the system is working.

Regarding your reference to the BOD- I never impkied that the SORC or MOD commissions had authority to make decisions regarding APBA by-laws.


Regarding my attendance to the meeting. I voted for my commissoners and am confident thay are doing the best job they can. But based on what I believe it would be hard to voice opposition to a matter when it seems noone was informed of it. (referring to the conversations with commission members who were in attendence)

[ryan_4z]

I have to say, Ed has all of his bases covered here. I believe it is in fact written into our by-laws that Robers Rules of Order will govern the procedure of our meetings. I could be wrong about this. The other thing to remember is that, in addition to out commissioners, we also elect our Board of Directors. This rule exemption was not dictatorially handed down, but voted on by the proper governing body.

[Haüenstein]

I'm not an attorney and I believe the majority of both the Stock and Mod commissions are not attorneys. Also this is not a court of law. Therefore to quote "Roberts Rules", unanimous consent or adoption by acclamation is not an adequate defense.

We used Robert's Rules of Order in middle school student council, so it's not like he's citing Moyer v. Peabody or something.

But I digress. Anyway, I think there are some good questions that have been raised, if a little intensely. : )

If they were opening up the tech rules that would be interesting but I haven't seen any indication of that and no reason to expect that. And the membership matters are more an APBA issue than a SORC issue.

That leaves high points and Hall of Champions, the tangential APBA/SORC/MORC/membership topics. If this is something enough people feel passionately about, maybe there should be a commission ruling on whether third-on-the-water-but-first-in-the-membership-roll wins the points. I'm inclined to agree with Mr. KAOS there who says just win it.

I have no idea if any of that made any sense,
MAH

[ryan_4z]

That leaves high points and Hall of Champions, the tangential APBA/SORC/MORC/membership topics. If this is something enough people feel passionately about, maybe there should be a commission ruling on whether third-on-the-water-but-first-in-the-membership-roll wins the points. I'm inclined to agree with Mr. KAOS there who says just win it.

I have no idea if any of that made any sense,
MAH

I dont think we need to do all this. If you win your the champ. I don't want to see someone get third, and be considered champion. As far as I am concerned, all of the questions raised(at least the ones I have raised) deal directly with non-members, and how to smoothly assimilate them into this event. But like I mentioned above, if AOF and NBRA members have to purchase a single-event membership, then that changes the whole scenario.

[14-H]

I'm not an attorney and I believe the majority of both the Stock and Mod commissions are not attorneys. Also this is not a court of law. Therefore to quote "Roberts Rules", unanimous consent or adoption by acclamation is not an adequate defense.

Kevin: General Robert wasn't an attorney either and I bought my first copy of his rules long before I was a lawyer. Mike H., has a jump on me though, I didn't hear about Robert's Rules until I was a high school freshman.

Explain how 2 stk commissioners, 1 mod commissioner and the Mod Chair who were all in attendence told me that this matter was not brought up at the meeting.

Are you serious? Has it been so long since you've been to an annual meeting that you've forgotten the hospitality room?

Show me some evidence to support that accepted policy, protocol and procedure was adhered to so myself and all the members can be assured the system is working.

If you haven't seen it yet, you'll never see it. Now let's go back to the Roll Call Thread! Ed.

[Jack Stotts]

Behold the turtle, he only makes progress when his neck is out! Thanks for your fine efforts Ed. Now lets have a great race.

[AOFoffice]

I believe that any AOF or NBRA member who might win a class would not mind if they were not named the APBA winter Nationals champ. If APBA would want to go down the line of winners and award the championship and HOC points, then that is ok. If the AOF/NBRA member wanted the points, they would have joined with a full membership. Anyone who wins and is an AOF member will get an award from AOF anyway.
I think that Jesup was a great first combined race. When racers registered, I was there asking if a non AOF member wanted to join either as a one day or full. If a person joined for a full membership we just rolled this over to a 2006 membership, as after all, they would not have a chance to run another AOF race this year. If they didn't want to join, then that was ok. There was no judging, scorning, or anything. I fully understood why some people did not want to gamble $25 at a possibility of winning a national championship in an organization that they don't normally run. $25 is some serious beer drinking, or some gas to get home on. We did however, give each winner an hour to come and pay the $25 if they won and wanted to win the AOF championship. Hey, why not? AOF got $25 that they would not have had otherwise and everyone had fun.
At the awards banquet, those who won the race got their award. (OF course, everyone was an APBA member anyway, so first place got first place). Those who were AOF members also recieved their awards. In the case of CR for instance, the first four boats were not AOF, but the fifth one, William Walker was. Bill said that was his first national championship. Some of you might think that was a watered down national championship. I would ask Bill Walker what he thought. He was on cloud nine. The first four boats didn't care. But in the end, we all had a good time.
Sometimes we get way to serious about all this.
Connie

[Matt Dagostino]

Prizes...................

[QUOTE=AOFoffice]
At the awards banquet, those who won the race got their award. (OF course, everyone was an APBA member anyway, so first place got first place).



Connie...............

Having attended the Jessup event it did not go unnoticed by several of us how you/AOF made a 'great' effort to provide nice awards to you champions and the J Classes. The vases,t-shirts and the $$$$ for the winners was a nice touch. Hopefully your Winter Nationals will attract more participants than Jessup to keep you and Linda a little busier

matt & Grumpy Gary