Canadian Boating Federation Rip Off Race Insurance Costs??

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

I have been going through post event statistics on costs that have me puzzled about CBF insurance costs in the past. I noted on some previous CBF posts that racing there in the east is very much governed by factors involving insurance costs that don't make any sense. When there were events here, all those events done by some insurance carrier and done at the last moment even though the events and their insruance coverages were known way in advance of the event were being charged off at $8,000.00 CDN$ whether the event was F-1, ModVP, SST120, Modified Outboard of Stock Outboard events. Coverages were purposely held up as were insurance costs until the last minute by the insurer in each case to the last possible receipt by close of business day prior to the event and the premier issued just prior to the event same so alternatives were not possible through any other carrier through any other public liability scheme, so out of the 4 events that were done here the insurance for the 4 weekend events was 4X$8,000.00 = $32,000.00 for the 4 events. The most expensive scheme for our forms of racing on the USA side of the border was $2,500.00 USD$ under APBA for the entire weekend and it has become aparent that the insurance carrier on both sides of the border was the same but with a Canadian broker on one side of the border serving the Canadian Boating Federation and USA brokers on their side of the border servicing the American Power Boat Association etc. Just what is this $32,000.00 CDN$ insurance cost on the Canadian side of the border all about where in thee USA it would have been $10,000.00 USD$ on the USA side of the border yet liability awards per accident are ski high in the USA's judicial awards system while in Canada the awards are super low and conservative as if the judges were getting some payoffs from the insurance industry? Wonder why out west here we look south instead of the Canadian Boating Federation there in the east? Just where did the CBF get these insurance shysters from, where they are playing 2 different game shows on both sides of the border or in short the Canadian side being ripped off by the Canadian broker for the insurance carrier that served racing on both sides of the border? From this alone affiliating with the CBF is not worth it and saves megabucks from a bloated insurance broker who charges tripple for race insurance in Canada than in the USA using the same carrier that covered all of North America out of the head office in the USA. This is what you call a real event killer done by an out of control insurance ripoff scheme! Has the CBF done anything to reign in this scandalous ripoff in insruance costs?

[Andrew 4CE]

Not sure what we pay out here, but I know it's no where near $8k for a stock/mod event. That makes no sense. I could guess it might be $8k if you had all of those divisions. F1 is a big boat going very fast.

[crankbearing]

Insurance

John,

I agree with andrew and do not know where you got your figures but we now pay the same insurance fees as the races south of the border. We have been paying this for sometime now at least 5 years or more. The coverage is the same as south of the border as well, other then I am sure there are certain aspect of the laws in Canada and the US that differ.

We have been using the same carriers for the racer's membership as the races themselves. The only thing that we had to ever pay more for was to add another racing division I.E. Vintage or OPC, this would be an increase in premium as well depending on the race site would requre divers etc...

The bottom line is yes something had to be done about insurance cost etc..and the cost of events. we have worked on this insurance, members, policies, coverage etc.. with the APBA to come up with a good solution and I think that we now have it. Come Convetion Time I think that you will see the numbers for CBF members are up again S/O for the first time in a long time this is a very good thing. No organization is perfect, but this is a volunteer sport and with out volunteers there is no racing.

Regards,

[Flying Squirrel]

CBF Insurance Costs

In my past, I have been involved with CBF for quite some time.I've worked with stock/mod outboard, inboard, Offshore, and have even explored the Unlimited Tour/ Hydroprops. The figures quoted are plain inaccurate, but the point is the same. In the past CBF was paying for their insurance needs through Canadian underwriters. Due to differences in the size of the "insurable group" combined with some very expensive litigation in a certain division the cost of insuring Canadian events increased substantially. As a result CBF, by necessity, began utilizing the American market in search of reasonable rates. The brokers in Canada who wish to enter this market are few and far between. The Insurers willing to write such business are even fewer. It's simple supply/demand economics that drove prices up. The only advise I can offer is to explore all options to get the best "bang for your buck". This has really become more of a race comittee issue than one CBF could handle.

Flying Squirrel

[David_L6]

John,

I agree with andrew and do not know where you got your figures...

Sounds like he got them from "Hurricane Mike"!

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

Try Financial Records and Even Bank Cancelled Cheques & Verifications

That was a cheap shot David! I will keep that in mind, when I see you or read your messages on other boards. In the future keep your taudry email videos to yourself, there are children about.

Look people, actual financial records copies don't lie and neither do copies of bank cancelled checks (certified for payment cheques at that) approved for payment and payment taken. Four events and four cheques each made payable for $8,000.00. Event One (1) was F-1, ModVP and SST120, Second (2nd) Event was F-1, ModVP and SST120, Event Three was F-1, ModVP and SST120, Event 4 was Stock & Modified, Small Tunnel & Outboard Drag. All were 2 day running events with one extra day for insured testing. $8,000 X 4= $32,000.00 That does not require a calculator or for that matter a pencil and paper. Sanctioning, permit and related do***ent copies that needed to be filed with local muncipal agencys don't lie don't either identifying named insured with liability limits and certification of premiums paid to the insurer. I heard that people lost employment over audits concerning these financial records and some even left town for parts unknown. It is clear that these insurers and named insured were part of the sanctions as in the case of the IOGP representing racers some of the events and with the event being in Canada, the Canadian Boating Federation was also written up as a named insured by their request and their sanction. Seeing that was the situation and everyone seems aghast with the dollar figures perhaps a "real spokesman" for the CBF should be forthcoming and tell me that what I am seeing in facts, figures and copies is all BS? I believe what I am seeing is quite true and quite real. It only makes me wonder what kickbacks or dirty little deals if any were going on sticking any event for a weekend with an $8,000.00 insurance premium for $5,000,000.00 worth of liability coverage for 3 days, 4 times, all by bank certified checks. Kind of takes your breath away doesn't it? In one event's case I was named assistant pit manager and in another event I was the certified safety and risk manager listed. I am already committing to others that the do***entation is authentic and it took their breath away. Now I know why. Race insurance like most insurance can be a dirty business where the way is take the money and run and if? then so sue me. So this is what the pained looks in some faces represented when boatracing bacame the subject matter.

[Abbott Racing]

Just to set the record straight, when you file a race sanction for a Canadian race you are sending the Canadian Sanction application to CBF. If it is a joint sanction you are completing a copy of the APBA sanction which is sent to the APBA office, then you do your insurance application which is sent to the APBA insurance broker. At no time does the $$$$ go to CBF. When you do your paper work yes groups like CBF, APBA, race site owner, governing club etc.... appear on the paper work as insured.......

So to wrap it up there is NO kickback to CBF the fee you pay is what it would cost you if you were doing the same race in the USA. All the insurance forms etc... come from the APBA site, so the price you see there is what you pay whether you are a Canadian site or American site.

If you have any further concerns, please don't hesitate to call the CBF office at 1-877-377-4122.

[crankbearing]

Event costs

Hey John,

I just looked up and figured out the pricing to hold the above event today insurance pricing in US dollars with 5 Mill liability and no ambulance cost or diver costs. You would be close to 5000USD that does not include champ series costs or uim registration for F-1 etc... and we did not see a reduced rate until three years ago. So! back then You have provided no dates for the above races so we do not know when these races were to have taken place.

Eric hit the nail on the head with his caption above. When I used to have my audio business and sat down with the Manufacturer to talk about sales fore-cast they would give me the number they wanted to see for Canada (all) and I would laugh and then ask them would they did in sales for Northern California in the last three years. I then expalined to them that with 100% market share we would see those numbers for all of Canada maybe within 3-5 years. Our insurable group in Canada is too small and that is exactly why we now get our insurance through the same company APBA uses.

But if you are still no satisfied and are a CBF member (voting) then supply all your info.

Budget reports
Dates of all events.
A full list of your complaints to CBF head office by the 19th of October with a letter explaning what you would like to see and we can discuss it at the general meeting at the convention in Nov.

If not this whole thread is mute as the bottom line now is we do not have a problem anymore with insurance and what is in the past is in the past. There were different people involved back then and there has not been a OPC race in Canada for what 15 years until last year and they still have not paid there CBF zone fees for Ont. I guess they thought it was a gift.

We work very hard now to get boat racing on in Canada and the powers that be worked very hard to reduce insurance, sanctions, ambulance costs over the past couple years to allow us to have our weekends of Fun.

So if you have a concern then have it handled through the proper channels as explained above. I hope this post is not considered as beating around the bush. I honestly was not involved back then and really am not concerned as I know what insurance costs are for OUR S/O races as I write some of the checks for our club and Bob is right CBF never touched the money.

Regards,

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

Team Member Mrs - Your Completely Right And These Are Audited Records Copies People

Thanks Team Member MRS what your saying is exactly the case.

These are copies of audited records with all the background do***entation, of River Life etc. and arm of the former Folk Arts Council of Manitoba (Winnipeg), then under Director Don Blair and then some, tons of it. This is the stuff the public was not supposed to see that was purposely swept under the carpet after prople were fired and their organization re-orgainzed from ever straying in things that were not of any organizational mandate approved by government as an arms length tourism promotion body. This is what insurance industry shysters were doing to the Canadian Powerboat Racing Scene, Ripping It Off! Plain and simple. They saw golden rip off opportunties and summarily ripped them off.

I am still dealing with the fallouts of what happened here and with that came some more enlightenment. No there is nothing there saying the CBF was involved in the ripoffs but it's plausible that the insurance broker used the terms and conditions of sanctioning bodies as a front to blindside the needs of the event with last minute rippoff insurance rates done so late so as to extort a fee they wanted or forget the coverage.

Canadians have a bad habit of pointing out the bad things about the USA all the time to Canadians to make Canadian's thin and feel superior to the USA as a country. I on the other hand have studied our two countries because I have worked in both and I envy the USA has the checks and balances in their legal and justice systems our political bandits would never extend to Canadians as that would be taking democracy here just too far! Insurance frauds like this would see the insurance broker up on fraud and or antitrust charges, here in Canada, the boss would give him a pat on the back and tell him to go and find their next victim!

Its good to hear that insurance costs are being reined in as it is those bandits and their greed that damage everything in site. Problem is that people have long memorys and only look at the evil done as being the whole picture and it takes years to get from under that rock, if at all.

[Abbott Racing]

In all fairness to the volunteers who make up CBF, if you were trying to point out that the insurance companies in the past ripped us off then your post title should be insurance company ripoffs as opposed to CBF ........

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

In All Fairness I Do Believe The Previous Writer May Be Right

There seems to be a deadend as to whether or not the CBF knew what these insurance brokers were up to as all there is of any indication of the CBF involvement is the verification process that the CBF was a named insured and having that is part and parcel of obtaining a sanction and that is to provide insurance protection to the sanctioning body.
If anything else was ever going on there is no indication here.

It leaves to wonder what did the CBF knew as insurance rates and no doubt some accidents, real bad ones at Valleyfield a few years back would have been fertile ground for those Canadian insurance brokers to hold racing in general at ransom to higher event liability insurance costs where for years preceeding that there was a "claims free" historical record, but, We all know how insurance brokers and companies like to make money for their shareholders, so any claim as any excuse to raise the rates anytime they can and get away with it. In the face of all this there must have been some one else screaming from somewhere else screaming loudly? There isn't any other event in this country that got stiffed $8,000.00 for a single event in insurance premium costs? Its hard to believe otherwise after seening this!

[Andrew 4CE]

I'm still lost a bit... what do we pay for a SO event currently? I guess maybe $2k for two days? If that was the case, $8k for three days on a program that includes IOGP (with boats on cranes over people?) and Drag Boats with $5,000,000 coverage in a city centre (wasn't the race in downtown Winnipeg?) doesn't sounds out of line to me. That's why these big boats have big entry fees isn't it?

I could be way off on the SO costs and location of race though...

[crankbearing]

we could harp on this all day!!!

OK John, Matt

Point taken but then on the other hand should we really fork over a severance package to Dingwall for his time at the mint when he cannot supply proper do***ents for his 700K in expenses that he cannot explain and is it really proper for a politician in Toronto to assses property values in Ottawa and he has probably never been inside the Ottawa-Carleton region in his life and now elderly people on fixed incomes are having to sell the homes they have lived in for 50 years OH but wait nobody will now buy the houses because the assesments have just gone up by 20% some as much as 400%. Go liberals GO. You can complain all you like but the system will never change unless we as CDN's get it changed. We just sit back and contnue to let this gov't railroad us all the way down the line.

our Prime Minister we are not going to decrease gas price tax as it all goes to local municipalities to help pay for roads etc... well there still closing schools around here and they still have a 100 year old power grid in Kanata. See there are a million things to complain about will we see it change in our lifetime not likely!!!

My point is you are right we most likely got the shaft from the insurance companies and/or the people involved or more correct your races and the province by the sound of it. we cannot change it now, we have fixed the problem with the best solution we now know and are happy with it. Heck we still are getting beat with insurance prices today for everything else cars, homes, trailers etc... but as soon as you mention motor sports to any broker or underwriter there eyes light up like christmas trees with $$$ signs and the ding ding ding goes off in there pocket books.

Frustrating as it is what do you consider to be the solution, here John and what are you looking for from your post. As I said send the info to CBF and ask for an investigation to be done maybe it;s too long since past I do not know the answer. We still have a treasurer in the CBF I believe.

Regards,

[crankbearing]

Oh ya! that would be cool

That would be great matt, only I would end up in the clink for kicking the crap out of the cabinet members, including my own. LOL Kindergarten is in session...

Regards,

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

Political Morality, Taxes And Gas Prices

Our media try to portray Canada as being somehow above the cut in terms of the rest of North America and elsewhere. If those people saw what really goes on here it takes special interests "compacts" to new heights than the down and dirty muck rake politics in the USA. I keep telling them that the USA politics in general would be a kindergarten class tea party in comparssion to the ultra-conservative graft that goes on here in Canada. You hear we referring to this place as the Soviet Socialist Republic of Kannuckistan, then you would also realize what I know about its public service too and I do! If Dave wants to get into politics and fight graft, your need more than a kevlar suit, he will need some coalskuttles strapped around him or extra armour plate and the nine lives like a cat too!