New Point To Ponder - Used Engines

[D_Allen_III]

I think the problem we have here is that there are way to many unknowns on this subject. Neither stock outboard or Hot Rod can give answers, because there is no test data. Its sort of pointless for us to discuss it all until the protype Hot Rod A engines are MADE and then raced this summer against the current A's. It's hard for all of us to sit at home all winter and not talk about the issues, since we have the racing itch 365 days a year and not just during the summer, but nothing is going to get settled until we get real results from this summers racing. Then both the SORC and Hot Rod can get together and make a plan.

[Dr. Thunder]

Should ASH/ASR be continually faster each generation? It already crowds into the speeds B ran in the past.

No ... new ASH/ASR with a Hot Rod should be engineered to be slower not faster than the current OMC. Even more preferable would be for it to run a competition speed somewhere in the low 50's range. Kilo records for ASR and FAR are only 1MPH apart. Competition records are generally only about 3 MPH apart. That makes no sense at all. Mod vs. stock speeds for same c.i. should not even be close ... other wise why diddle with modifications to your engine to improve speed if you are not achieving any significant improvement?

[Dr. Thunder]

My point was, it seems many people are pinning the future on the back of the new Hot Rod company. And while they seem to be the only company who is stepping up and getting ready to produce new engines, the question is, where are you going to stick these engines?

"A" Stock Hydro, "A" Stock Runabout ...


This could be 1985 all over again. There were 100's of KG's running and parts were in every marina and scrap yard. However, the engine had not been produced in 20 + years. The OMC came aboard and it was slower than the Merc KG as well as

And then they "plugged" the engine ...

... OMC wanted a sizable market, not just 10 or 20 every year. And remember, the A class at the time was one of the biggest, just as it is today.

Perhaps it was just the right time for the new OMC engine for "A" ... Regardless of the politics of the APBA in the mid 80's you shouldn't need to dredge through engine boneyards to find the "best" parts to gain a competitive advantage for a "stock" engine. Just because we all did it doesn't mean it makes sense.

It just makes sense that to entice new manufactures into our small market, they would want guarentee/ idea on what their market share is going to be. If the new Hot Rod A is 10 mph slower than the OMC, who is going to run right out and buy it?

Anybody that wants to run a good, clean, competitive engine in ASH or ASR ... where parts are readily available (today you can routinely get UPS , FedEx etc. to provide next day delivery). If your only reason for buying the Hot Rod "A" engine is because it's faster than the current OMC or Merc 15 then you are missing the point in this entire issue.

How many motors can Hot Rod really expect to sell? Should they put all this time and effort into a project that will net them only 3 motors a year?

Haven't seem their business plan ... but, if I were one of the Hot Rod guys and I'm looking at just the 2004 competitors in the current "A" classes I'd probably be wasting my time if my number of units projected to be sold annually wasn't at least 100+ for the first several years. Too ambitious ... don't know ... time will tell.

Brian 10s

Personally ... I'm hoping to be at the front of the line as soon as the new Hot Rod "A" hits the water.

[G Stillwill]

Going back to the middle 70's the Hotrod came out again and was suposed to replace the KG-4 of course there was protests by the A drivers so at the Nationals in Dayton in 1975 or 1976 I forget which but they had a race to see if with some mods done to the KG-4 it could stay with the new Hotrods you could run the 7/8 carb and 16/21 gears in the KG-4. A KG-4 won the first heat and broke in the second heat. Anyway in the end they just made a new class for the Hotrod 15SS and actually alot of the A drivers bought them. I had one 695.00 out the door ran it for two years without doing anyting to it but change the gear grease and timming it. Still had to hold them out of the water to start but they started and were dependable and speeds were right around 58 to 60 mph on a hydro with a competition set up. So they can be detuned to slow them down and at the same time will live longer.

[Dr. Thunder]

... Then both the SORC and Hot Rod can get together and make a plan.

Why wait ...

Hot Rod has a plan ... it's a good plan and should be enthusiastically endorsed and supported by every APBA Stock, Mod and Pro member.

This is one of the best things to be proposed for "kneeldown" outboard racing in the last 40+ years.

There is no downside ...

While we may not yet know all there is to know on the subject it is far wiser to take a proactive position now ... today!

In the meantime, while we are waiting we have the opportunity to work through all the what ifs ... consider all the possible alternatives ... debate the issues.

[dcrummett]

Kind of an outsider here (at least as far as clubs go), but whatever happened to 15 cubic inches and below, 20 cubic inches, 30 cubic inches and 40 cubic inches as classes?

It seems to me, "stock" should be "stock"...bolted onto whatever will transmit power to a lower unit, regardless of the manufacturer.

Look at the dragstrip... even though I'm a died in the wool Ford guy, the Chevrolets dominated with the small block V8s for years with engines of similar (and usually less displacement) than Ford and Chrysler. Did anyone say, "let's only let the Chevy's race Chevys?" Did the Ford guys want a class of their own? (Maybe, but they didn't get it.) The engine that breathed the best and ran the best, and could be modified to run the best for the least was the dominant engine.

Why is that so difficult to transfer to boat racing? I know a 24 inch Yamato is quick in C...but I get a real charge out of watching the guys who know how to make 'em run, take a Mark 30 block and have rice pudding for lunch! (While making a great noise at the same time!)

What is the problem with letting displacement be the rule and everybody bring their brand to the lake and sort it out at the finish line?

Dan
O-49

[D_Allen_III]

Doc Thunder:
Its not the point of whether they have a good plan or not... I know they have a GREAT plan, and I think Dean and Ron, and anyone else apart of it that I left out are doing a hell of a job getting the plan into action. All I'm saying is that we debate whether it should fit in with the OMC's or the Merc's, or the row boats for that matter, and its pointless because we dont have a Hot Rod A engine yet to race. We need results in order to classify and seperate all the motors. that'll be all.

[Dr. Thunder]

Doc Thunder:
<snip>
... All I'm saying is that we debate whether it should fit in with the OMC's or the Merc's, or the row boats for that matter, and its pointless ...

I understand what you are saying. But pointless it is not.

Strategic planning whether you are APBA or The American Hot Rod Company is just plain good business management. Being proactive, putting first things first, dealing with what is important is not pointless.

Why not consider the possibility that the Hot Rod prototype "A" is successful in testing and ultimately in production and; if you are APBA, have your alternatives sorted out in advance? Why not study and deal with today the potential adverse issues that members might introduce tomorrow? Why wait until just before the APBA Annual Meeting in 200? before you do your thinking? Why not approach the subject in a disciplined and timely fashion rather than wait until you have to deal with an emotionally charged set of issues?

If A happens then we (APBA) will do B ... if B happens then we will do C etc.
Be proactive .... be smart ... be forward thinking ... The American Hot Rod Company sure is and I have to believe that the SORC is as well!

Neal Baum
Edmonds WA
R125
55R

[sam]

If A happens then we (APBA) will do B ... if B happens then we will do C etc.

Neal, I think the problem is that there are many more variables and possibilities. The flow chart with all the possiblities would be several pages long.

I do see where you are coming from .... we are in a time of flux and no one can predict exactly where we will be 5 years from now.

[D_Allen_III]

Neal,
It doesn't really matter if we have good business management, because neither you nor I, have a vote on the SORC so it doesnt exactly matter what we think. Plus, like sam said it, there are too many variables. So lets just give it some time before we debate over whether or not we are going to be putting new motors into action or not...

[dave93ce]

Hey dave does hot rod have a web site that people can go to and get imformatiom,or prices
Dave c

[sam]

Dave c, keep watching right here on hydroracer.net

Hot Rod is still gearing up:Press release

[dave93ce]

i have one question?Will the J/A boats be ok to run the hot rods on
Dave C

[sam]

I think it would be reasonable to say that you wouldn't have to buy a new boat to use a new Hot Rod when they become available.

Cooper or Dean could probably give us a detail on this.

[Brian10s]

Neal,
It doesn't really matter if we have good business management, because neither you nor I, have a vote on the SORC so it doesnt exactly matter what we think. Plus, like sam said it, there are too many variables. So lets just give it some time before we debate over whether or not we are going to be putting new motors into action or not...

I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out like that but you and I are the SORC. You and I and every other member will elect our commissioners at our fall meetings and those commissioners will represent OUR ideas and beleifs on the future. If the SORC doesn't adhear to your idea of the direction the sport is headed, vote them out and get a new batch. That is one of our greatest gifts and we should not loose sight of it (especially after all the legal stuff that happened not to long ago).

And my vote for the SORC better have an idea of the direction they are steering the sport. I'm not saying they need to know the address of our destination but the direction, yes. And if it is the SORC's choice to repeat the 20 year engine swap, then we as a group learned nothing from the past and will continue to be doomed to repeat it. Yes, the Hot Rod need to be built, proven then produced in quanity. All those things are variables and could crash at anytime. But we as a group must atleast have an idea on the direction we are heading.

Brian 10s