New Point To Ponder - Used Engines

[Dave M]

With all this talk about phasing out engines, and bringing in new I have some thoughts. I also see where many people claim the need to save for new engines.

I stop to think about this for a minute, and I wonder where the used engines are going ? Since most stock and mod engines are not suitable for pleasure craft use once they have been converted to race condition, how are we going to sell these to get any funds towards new engines ? I truthfully can't think of one racing engine that you could sell to a pleasure boat guy for blue book value of the pleasure stock value. They would have to buy all the parts again to convert it back to pleasure craft. Given the nature of buying used items, people are not willing to pay for something like that I don't think.

So here we are, stuck with a bunch of obsolete engines that have no value. Can't race them, might be able to sell them to a laker.... maybe.

So think twice before mandating a new engine as the only engine legal to race in a particular class.

[Dr. Thunder]

... there are certain exceptions!

So here we are, stuck with a bunch of obsolete engines that have no value. Can't race them, might be able to sell them to a laker.... maybe.
So think twice before mandating a new engine as the only engine legal to race in a particular class.

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Try to find a decent (or any) Hot Rod HNR engine. Anything Konig, Quincy, Anzani or previous Mercury product has a huge resale market for ex-racers, collectors et.al.

Not only that but who really thinks that any consumer product, racing related or not, should retain its retail value ... amortization of value is a reality. Depreciation is a reality for most products. Show me any racing related item that won't fetch at least 50% of its original value ... even after its been used for 10-20 years.

[modhydro]

I think the point Dave was making is that if an engine is made obsolete, you've just ended several guy's racing career unless they buy the new engine to stay in that class. They would be left with nothing more than decorations for a motor rack. While I think that new engines are great, i believe that there should be a pretty long carry over for the older ones to remain in a class as well. That will give the guys in a class the time to decide which route to go either stick with what they have or buy all new. Leave the choice to them.

You have to admit that the engines you listed are all quite old. Will a racer hang on to his current stuff for 40+ years to sell it? I think not. He has the option of running in MOD which to me seems a better alternative to all of the one engine stuff and such strict adherence to "stock" equipment. The way I see it with all the talk about universal towers and gearfeet, stock could just become quiet mod. The only thing that could change this is if Hot Rod, Dave Scott, and the Bass program are allowed to succeed and pump new equipment into the classes that are here now.

Just another opinion

Steve Roskowski

[Brian10s]

I is almost coming to the point that if we don't make the current engine obsolete, the manufactures can't make enough money to make it worth their while. Yet if we get rid of the current motor, then we also might be getting rid of some drivers as well.

Kind of a catch 22, right?

What if (as stated in another post) the Stock division becomes the division of the current production motor and the Modified division becomes the domain for the obsolete/ current motors?
This will do nothing for reduction of the number classes or any of the other issue that we bat back in forth but it will give a place at the table for all the new production engines as well as a place for all the current motors. As the Stock Division brings on a new motor, the old must be obsorbed by Mod. Maybe there will be a 5yr exclusive rule so that all new motor production goes to Stock before the Mod think about adopting the new motor (as there is no reason an engine can't run in both and still be healthy). Also, there would have to be a rule that states if an engine fall out of be production, Stock has 5 years to find a replacement before it automatically gets placed into Mod. That will keep fresh supply engines and manufactures in the pipeline.

Just an idea.

Brian 10s

[Dr. Thunder]

What a great service this site offers ...

Where else can we go to conduct civil discussion on so many different topics.

I think the point Dave was making is that if an engine is made obsolete, you've just ended several guy's racing career unless they buy the new engine to stay in that class.
Steve Roskowski

Totally disagree with that point ... why do we need to make any engine obsolete? For purposes of this conversation let's limit ourselves just to the subject of "A/J/AXS" class engines. If all of the current OMC "A" owners/drivers were to simply move to the FAH/FAR classes then they can run those engines for another twenty years or more if they want.

The speed differential between the current ASH/ASR and FAH/FAR is not much more than three MPH and there are tons of parts available (does anybody really care if the "formula" classes run in the stock category?).

Admittedly I've got my fingers crossed that Ron Selewach and the Hot Rod boys come through with that new gearcase. But, assuming that will happen, you end up with a lot more competition, better races, more entries per class ... all around a much better program and nobody needs to obsolete anything.

So we wait a year or two for the brand new, much improved, "A" (really stock) Stock Hydro and Runabout classes to get on the water. In the meantime the "J" kids and those still tinkering with the Merc 15 in AXS have a place to work and play. By the time the new Hot Rod hits the streets for ASH/ASR you've got a time tested new engine for "J" and you can drop the AXS classes off the menu.

Feel the excitement ... new records for ASH/ASR, new drivers, new boats ... and who knows, maybe some of our local boat and outboard motor retailers Will step up and put a couple of these neat little Hot Rod engines on their showroom floor along with a couple of brand new, locally built racing boats in exchange for a couple of nice advertising banners flying over the pits at your next seasons races.

[Dr. Thunder]

...
What if (as stated in another post) the Stock division becomes the division of the current production motor and the Modified division becomes the domain for the obsolete/ current motors? ...

As the Stock Division brings on a new motor, the old must be obsorbed by Mod ...

... Also, there would have to be a rule that states if an engine fall out of be production, Stock has 5 years to find a replacement before it automatically gets placed into Mod. That will keep fresh supply engines and manufactures in the pipeline.

Just an idea.
Brian 10s

Brian ... these are all really great ideas ... nobody gets hurt and you have a huge, moderately priced supply of engines and parts for the mod category and the stock guy has a market for his older, still functional equipment, and little cash in his pocket to help defray the cost of new equipment. This is a great Win/Win approach to solving the problem. And, the best part is that nothing is "obsolete".

[sam]

Feel the excitement ... new records for ASH/ASR,

Should ASH/ASR be continually faster each generation? It already crowds into the speeds B ran in the past.

[D_Allen_III]

I think the new hot rods will be slower then the current OMC A's so it would actually be slowing down some. On the topic of moving all "old" stock engines to mod so they can be raced...man that is a really touchy spot.

No one wants to have their class just cut from the program but at the same time, we would be dividing up one group of drivers into 2 different classes. FAH/FAR really only survives because people can go race their A rig twice as much as they normally would. Yes, some people do build true Formula A's, but the percentage is is low compared to the Stock A rigs. If we do send all the OMC's to mod, some may buy hot rod engines and run A Stock and A Mod, and some might say forget it I'm just racing what I have and sticking to Mod. The numbers and participants in our sport is so low already, and the amounts of classes is so high, it would be hard for two seperate classes to truly thrive on the opportunity. I'm not bashing the idea at all cause it seems like a good one, but I wouldn't want to see one of the largest classes in stock outboard get split in two and become a "boring" class. Just some thoughts.

[kws]

just want to say there are very good points on both sides of the fence on this one.

[Dr. Thunder]

I think the new hot rods will be slower then the current OMC A's so it would actually be slowing down some. On the topic of moving all "old" stock engines to mod so they can be raced...man that is a really touchy spot.

Why is it a touchy spot ...

No one wants to have their class just cut from the program

No classes would be cut ...

but at the same time, we would be dividing up one group of drivers into 2 different classes.

Actually you would be temporarily dividing four classes into two (ASH/ASR and FAH/FAR)...

FAH/FAR really only survives because people can go race their A rig twice as much as they normally would.

FAR/FAH barely survive now ...


Yes, some people do build true Formula A's, but the percentage is is low compared to the Stock A rigs.

The reality is there is not that much difference between the classes at present in terms of engine preparation if you are to be competitive in either ASH/ASR or FAH/FAR ...

If we do send all the OMC's to mod, some may buy hot rod engines and run A Stock and A Mod, and some might say forget it I'm just racing what I have and sticking to Mod. The numbers and participants in our sport is so low already, and the amounts of classes is so high, it would be hard for two seperate classes to truly thrive on the opportunity.

Actually the proposal eliminates two classes ... ASXH and ASXR ... those that don't want to buy a Hot Rod "A" can still run their current OMC "A" in one of the Formula "A" classes ...


I'm not bashing the idea at all cause it seems like a good one, but I wouldn't want to see one of the largest classes in stock outboard get split in two and become a "boring" class.

One of the largest classes in outboard racing will become more competitive, more racers, more entries ... its all good ... no downside!

Just some thoughts.

Good response Donny ... keep on thinking ... synergy ... that's the secret!

[G Stillwill]

As far as I know there was no mention of the Hotrod replacing anything in the AXS classes and anything about doing away with those classes. It suposed to be a steping stone to the A stock classes. I dont know about the left coast but in the east the class is doing quite well with almost as many ASX boats as there are A stock boats at a race. Besides that its another place for the OMC stuff to go when elimated from the A stock class also by doing away with the AXS class your doing away with the Merc 15 which is a newer motor and still available to buy new. Also the AXS class has shown that two different make motors can run together on a level playing field by resticting the faster motor. Also the OMC gear foot is a done deal and will be available some time next month. APBA is still waiting for the racing conversion kits for the MERC 15 as of two weeks ago.

[CSR4C]

I have been racing since 1961, The only time I ever sold motors for less than I paid for them was some KG4/Mk15 stuff when the OMC A came out. If I was smart enough to have held on to them I would have made money in the collector market.
Darrell

[Dr. Thunder]

Thanks for your response ... good comments ...

As far as I know there was no mention of the Hotrod replacing anything in the AXS classes and anything about doing away with those classes. It suposed to be a steping stone to the A stock classes.

Right on point George ... the AXS boats should simply be viewed as an interim "test" phase for the Merc 15. After the Hot Rod is proven to be a long term, readily available, cost effective replacement for the OMC and Merc 15 in ASH/ASR there will be no need for either of the AXS classes ...

I dont know about the left coast but in the east the class is doing quite well with almost as many ASX boats as there are A stock boats at a race.

I don't doubt that you have good fields in the AXS classes in some parts of the country ... but, how many of the entries are OMC versus Merc 15? The right answer should be "no OMC engines are running in AXS". But, is that the case? How many records have been set by Merc 15 engines in AXS ... as of October 2004 "ZERO".

It's time for the Merc 15 to assume it's appropriate place as THE (but not exclusively only) engine for the "J" classes. It is the logical steppingstone to the next speed level ASH/ASR.

The only reason I can think of for OMC engines to be running in AXS was because initially (and perhaps for political reasons)there were not enough of the Merc 15 engines being purchased.

Besides that its another place for the OMC stuff to go when elimated from the A stock class...

I can't think of any reason why you would want to retain the AXS classes. The OMC would still be able to race in the "J" classes and then be able to move into FAH/FAR when racer age threshold is reached. The OMC will have a place in stock/mod racing for many years to come.


... also by doing away with the AXS class your doing away with the Merc 15 which is a newer motor and still available to buy new.

See above ...

Also the AXS class has shown that two different make motors can run together on a level playing field by resticting the faster motor.

That's why they should both be appropriate and logical for "J" ... make the "J" class interesting and competitive for our youngest and newest racers. "My OMC can beat your Merc" type of thing.

Also the OMC gear foot is a done deal and will be available some time next month. APBA is still waiting for the racing conversion kits for the MERC 15 as of two weeks ago.

Excellent ... I can't wait ...

[modFE]

>>>So think twice before mandating a new engine as the only engine legal to race in a particular class.

Mod is good. FA would be a good place for the omc 15 to go. A mod's a non-class anyway. Current Stock motors available "New", shouldn't be in the mod classes. Except, the 25 classes and FE. my 1.5 cents

[Brian10s]

Hot Rod and the future

My point was, it seems many people are pinning the future on the back of the new Hot Rod company. And while they seem to be the only company who is stepping up and getting ready to produce new engines, the question is, where are you going to stick these engines?
This could be 1985 all over again. There were 100's of KG's running and parts were in every marina and scrap yard. However, the engine had not been produced in 20 + years. The OMC came aboard and it was slower than the Merc KG as well as, OMC wanted a sizable market, not just 10 or 20 every year. And remember, the A class at the time was one of the biggest, just as it is today.

It just makes sense that to entice new manufactures into our small market, they would want guarentee/ idea on what their market share is going to be. If the new Hot Rod A is 10 mph slower than the OMC, who is going to run right out and buy it? How many motors can Hot Rod really expect to sell? Should they put all this time and effort into a project that will net them only 3 motors a year? The answer is they won't.
Until "Kneeldown" racing sets a standard and sticks to it, we will always be the "flavor of the month/ decade". Until one category takes the lead in mandating new engines across the board and the other sets themselves up to catch the "outcasts", we will be having this discussion every couple of years. Think about this, the Yamato 80 hasn't been built in what 25+ years? And the 102 has been out of production for 10+? And what about the 44 Merc and the 25XS? So we have the 302 and the new Hot Rod and the Bass & Scott Merc as the only currently available engines. So with close to 3/4 of the Stock drivers (all the A's, 20's and most of the C's) running outdated, non current production engines, and everyone complaining that there are too many classes and the race day is to long and there isn't enough boat time already,there is only a couple choices:
1. add a couple more classes for the new Hot Rods ( and HR J class, HR A class and HR 20 ci class (both Hydro and Runabout) to our crouded schedule.
2. combine the new Hot Rods into existing classes and hope to get the speeds close so one doesn't dominate the other and hope that racers will buy enough new engines to make it worth while for Hot Rod to produce them.
3. start thinking outside the box and set up a plan for the future of "kneeldown" racing so that everyone (manufactures, commissioners and racers) all know what the next step is going to be, before it hits us in the face (again).

just my 5 1/2 cents.

Brian 10s