2014 J Class Rules

[pav225]

Wrath of Cron,
Welcome to racing!! Hope you guys have a blast!

Like Matt said, it can get competitive, but the kids learn a ton about competition, working hard, learn good mechanical skills, and have a ton of fun doing it!

- Mike

[pav225]

Tuck or No Tuck

One thing that needs to be considered is that not all boats are designed and built the same. Some work best running tucked under, while some work best running kicked out. It all depends on the design and weight of the boat.

In addition, kids come in a wide range of sizes and weights. We need flexibility in set-up to account for that range in order to keep them safe. My 63lb 9 year old is definitely going to need to run a different set-up than someone's 135lb 15 year old.

It boils down to simple physics. Boats and kids are all different and need different set-ups to compete safely. It's up to the parents to select a set-up that provides their kid with a safe ride. If the set-up is deemed unsafe (blowover or spin out) other parents should bring this up with the parent. If changes are not made, the racing committee should discuss it with the parent(s) as well in order to ensure a safe ride.

- Mike

[Matt Dagostino]

Good Stuff

Matt I understand exactly what you said, I didn't mean to sound as though there was no competition, there sure is, but I do look at J as a learning curve for Johnnie and I.

The best thing you can do is surround and associate with the 'fast dudes'....

Trying to figure this stuff out by yourself is tuff. Send me a PM if you like and i will point you in the right direction if you like.

Best of luck to you. I know my J days were great with the kids. It beats cutting the grass and watching football on weekends!!

[Matt Dagostino]

Hum

One thing that needs to be considered is that not all boats are designed and built the same. Some work best running tucked under, while some work best running kicked out.
- Mike

Mike

Nothing good comes from tucking a boat under 2-3".........just my observation. But then again i am not a boat builder like you and Sam.

[LarryR]

Seems that too little or too much tuck is unsafe, but the amount depends on the boat and weight distribution. Too little tuck probably results in lack of planing ability on most boats so it is sort of a "fail-safe". This may explain the small number of "blow-overs" There is no similar effect for too much tuck, thus the need for the rule, IMO.

All boats have to meet the mininum weight, so the added weight cancels out the advantage for the 63-lb 9 year old. Optimal location of the added weight gives some possible advantage, depending on boat design.

As with little league, the Dad's are competitive and it rubs off on the kids. None of this is a surprise to this newbie. I've been impressed with how well the kids get along between races, in spite of same.

I understand why the Js must use APBA props for fairness, but the added variable of a different prop every weekend doesn't really add to safety. Does it?

thanks again for the informative and generous discussion.
-LarryR, J g-Dad

[Dave M]

Great Point Matt

As long as APBA fosters a point system and Hall Of Champion positions for the J Classes it will remain as 'competitive' as any other classes within APBA.
Matt
J Dad

Perhaps that should be placed on the ballot... might eliminate 3/4 of the things being discussed on this thread.

[brian]

The best thing you can do is surround and associate with the 'fast dudes'....

Great advice I will add to it.

Wait until it gets late in the evening... bring out your fresh untouched FULL cooler and the secrets will flow out faster than the words on an Obama teleprompter! The only secret in boat racing is boat racers can't keep secrets. Oh, and you CAN buy speed, but so can the other guy.

[csh12M]

Why are we tucking in the first place?

Why are we tucking in the first place?

The reason the J are tucking is not to adjust the attitude of the boat, it is to "cheat" the extreme height restriction and go faster. The tuck combined with pulling the gearcase extremely close to the back of the boat results in additional speed. However, you do to it at the cost of the rig being able to plane easily. The heavier your kid is the farther you have to push the motor back and the more speed you lose. This is the fact of this class and I feel it is a terrible way to introduce kids to racing.

Its not the rookies in the class the cant plane it is usually the better racers who are running on the edge. I have watched first hand as parents have coached kids on how to effectively plane the rig. First step out on the deck, then you need top be able to nurse the throttle to avoid blowing our the prop, put a slight left turn into it and go with the wind. It is crazy what we expect these kids to handle let alone newbies.

If we really want to make the class easier, require a minimum setback of 4" from the front of the gearcase to the back of the boat. Everyone will plane then and you lessen the advantage of the extreme tuck. If you don't want to penalize the teams that have it figured out then pass a rule now for implementation in 2016. The fix is easy, getting it past the current J parents is the problem.

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

I have always thought it odd that the least experienced are allowed to climb out on the deck.

[Hutch06]

As long as APBA fosters a point system and Hall Of Champion positions for the J Classes it will remain as 'competitive' as any other classes within APBA.


Matt
J Dad

Like!

Its not the rookies in the class the cant plane it is usually the better racers who are running on the edge. I have watched first hand as parents have coached kids on how to effectively plane the rig. First step out on the deck, then you need top be able to nurse the throttle to avoid blowing our the prop, put a slight left turn into it and go with the wind. It is crazy what we expect these kids to handle let alone newbies.

If we really want to make the class easier, require a minimum setback of 4" from the front of the gearcase to the back of the boat. Everyone will plane then and you lessen the advantage of the extreme tuck. If you don't want to penalize the teams that have it figured out then pass a rule now for implementation in 2016. The fix is easy, getting it past the current J parents is the problem.

And Like!

[propfxrO84]

Dean, you are exactly correct. BTW I have no dog on the fight. But, I have spent 25years setting up boats to run faster and faster as my JOB/business and on the weekends just for fun. It really is a time burner when the poor kids cant get the boats to plane. I would like to see APBA buy in bulk (from one manufacturer) CNC'd "4" blade props to hand out at the races. That without allowing all that tuck, would bunch up the field. Probably somehow would just piss people off though. Just an idea from someone on the outside of "J"...........BT

[pav225]

Dean,
I like your thinking. My worry has always been that if we already run the same props, and now put very tight restrictions on boats, people will then be forced to start chasing horsepower....and that can get very expensive.

Again, parents need to monitor their kids set up. At most races, the kids get one shot at getting on plane, and can then make adjustments if needed. If the kid fails to get on plane, the parents should be smart enough to make the necessary adjustments to get them on plane.

- Mike

[csh12M]

Not tight boat restrictions

I am not asking for tight boat restrictions but that one simple dimension would greatly help the class. A minimum set back from the front of the gearcase to the back of the boat. It eliminates the big advantage of radical tuck. It planes all the boats easily regardless of driver weight. You can still build the boat any way you like. The way the rules are now only a very few can compete based on planing dexterity and size. Horse power is always at a premium but you would be fixing a few major set up problems. It would also allow heavier kids to compete in J longer and not make to quick a switch to AX.

Personally I really don't care what happens, but I feel like this solution has been very obvious for a long time. It just never gets past the current parent, which I also sympathize with. If you put in all the time to figure it out you should be rewarded. That is why I suggest changing it for the future.

Just 2 cents could not resist.

BTW - the sealed 302 put that dimension in the rules for the exact same reason.

[PittmanRacing]

Like the honesty and ideas!

My son is 9 and says he wants to race go-karts. As many of you know, I can help with boats but know little about karts. To entice him to try, I am putting together his own engine. The biggest hurdle is getting him out there to learn do drive. The next step will be to give him a chance to win and that is by having a fast setup.

As stated by Dean, extreme tuck is to get the motor higher and faster. To get that, you need to build a lot of lift into the boat (they did this in many other faster classes before the tuck rule). That means specialized boats if you want to win that are only suitable for J, as AX and A have tuck rules.

The idea of a minimum setback is interesting, but we also need to try to make sure the same boat will be competitive when they move to AX or A. That is why I suggested the same tuck rule. Maybe the solution is a minimum tuck and minimum setback so they can get up on plane. The need for horsepower already exists if you want to win.

Great ideas and conversations!

[Karl Dyle]

Motor set back

Dean i also like where you are going with this discussion. I have had difficulty with J runabouts planing out, with the motor in a almost paralell running attitude with the bottom, and a good 4"-6" behind the transom, not a hydro but for planing out purposes with the bow/sponsons in the air, i dont see the difference. I have also have struggled with running a paralell set up on a JH, and it was pointed out to me by Capt matt that i had the leading edge of the gearfoot too close to the transom, this is where the boat design / transom angle comes into play. A lot of new racers buy ASH or AX hydros for use in JH. ASH and AX do have the 1/2" tuck restriction, but no restictor plates, ASH and AX set ups put the leading edge of the gearfoot at or in front of the transom. To get the proper angle, and set back requires some hull mods. Putting the gearfoot closer to the transom has a similar effect as tucking whereby the height of the prop in relation to the water is higher the more forward you place it, read faster. This is where the specialized purpose built J
boat will shine over the ASH / AX rigs. Your solution of a implementation period is the best Solution I have read. I know that any rule changes will be challenged by the big spender teams in an effort to circumnavigate the rules, it has already been stated so on the APBA site. It comes down to making a entry point class for attracting new families into boat racing, or keeping with the status quo of today.