How do you measure ASH height now?

[Cameraboy]

Two seasons racing ASH. Each offseason, wait out the National meeting to see if we have to make changes to the racing program due to rule changes. The first year, not - the change was voted down. This year, yes. Go from tweaking a known setup to an unknown - start from scratch. New props, new height checker, extra testing. Maybe we'll stumble on something that works. And then what - another rule change for next season? That's attractive.

If we're going to have to go through all of that, maybe we should just sell the ASH stuff and jump to CSH. Nobody seems to want to screw with that class on a regular basis.

This was the most compelling safety issue in stock outboard racing?

[kws]

Hi, I just wanted to let you guys know, that in my opinion (having driven boats with both "extreme tuck" and without) that I actually prefer the tuck, and feel more comfortable with it. I don't know if thats just because its what I've learned unlike the "veterans", or just that I know how to drive my raceboat faster and with less fear than them, either way, were there ANY real "A" stock racers on the SORC? I know just from speaking to fellow ASH racers in region 10 (all of us happen to be under 30) that NO ONE from region 10 was in support of this, we all like our setups how they are.
My second point would be this, this rule actually CREATES more safety risk than it rids. Speaking in terms of most of the people I race against (my self included) most of us have boats built to run with the extreme tuck setup. This in laymens terms would mean that we all have boats designed with a lot of lift, because rather than try to get a rule changed we just evolved our equiptment to meet the demands of hard competition. The main point I'm trying to get at is that this rule is hurting probably over 75% of the ASH racers. We HAVE TO run tuck to keep our boats on the water, and with this new rule that means we have to make a choice between having to run with our motors buried, or running with a really light bow, niether of which sound fun!
Lastly, my friends I must ask, what ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY? It has always occured to me that boat racing is a sport that requires a high level of personal responsibility. That responsibility includes your own well being, and assuming racers are even half responsible, they shouldn't drive a setup they are uncomfortable with.
Mostly this rule just really frustrates me for many reasons.
1) I have seen NO factual evidence of this being a dangerous setup
2) The rule did NOT go to ballot even though it directly affects the drivers
3) I see NO reason that if someone is uncomfortable with the "extreme tuck" set up that they have to run it
4) In consideration to point 3, I see no more reason why people that are comfortable with that set up should be punished
5) I see no reason why the slower "A" boats should have to jum through all these hoops, when the faster and more dangerous "C" boats are allowed to run at 1/2"
Just some things to mull over,
Mike Perman 32-R
(and very upset ASH driver)

as the newest A racer in region 7 with my brother Gene right beside me (only 2 race weekends under our belts) one thing i am sure of is that i dont know personally if that setup is unsafe or not therefor im not even going to begin to comment about the pros and cons of the rule from a personal level. (lol i didnt even know they were running that setup untill the region 7 meeting i attended) as everones advice to us was make sure that its parallel with the running surface of the boat. but i will say that the over all opinion of the faster experianced racers whas that to many A boats were crashing running by themselves and felt something should be done. I am not trying to imply that everyone agreed. but certanly the majority of those that were there. but there where some exp. fast racers that run the setup because they have to to be competitive but didnt like it and they would never let their kid run it as it was to unsafe and their child us about to move up to A . one boat builder said fine change it ill just change the boat
wont the rule change make some of the older boats there were obsolete compared to the fast runners more competitive as they were designed before the tuck under was used? how long have the front runners been tucking under?

[mike ross]

Keep in mind the 1 3/8 being measured from the gear case split you are still running extremely tucked. You will be a little lower than before but not a huge amount. If you have a 12 boat field and the water gets rough you might not even notice any speed loss and might get a better driving boat. Go test and see. Mike

[17W]

Measurement Applies to Stock Only??

All I want is a Yes or No here... Is the Mod catagory going to adapt the same rule for Formula "AH". If Mr. Read can comment it would be appreciated.

[Matt Dagostino]

Remember When................

We heard similar whining when transom heights were established to try and bring our boats under control and attempt to create parity. Young Hearn is correct. This has become a 'safety' issue and the extreame tuck a ploy to skirt the transom height rule. Bob Wartinger(Safety chairman) has been around for a while and obviously agrees that this has becoming a real safety issue and needed to be addressed for the safety of the existing drivers and in particular the upcoming J and AXSH drivers who are the 'future' of the "A" class.

Although boatbuilders and some drivers will stew for a while .....they will no doubt re-tool and come back with other innovations to test the resolve of the SORC safety committee and all we can hope for is a real effort to maintain safety and allow "reasonable" innovation while assuring "Stock" parity.

Later

[ryan_4z]

...I don't know if thats just because its what I've learned unlike the "veterans", or just that I know how to drive my raceboat faster and with less fear than them...

It has nothing to do with the speed. It is the way the boat handles. And trust me, if you know anything about racing in the 70's these guys know about driving boats that are hard to handle.

...this rule is hurting probably over 75% of the ASH racers. ...

This is clearly an exageration. You shouldn't exagerate when debating it really makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

...or running with a really light bow...

Put some lead in the nose.

...It has always occured to me that boat racing is a sport that requires a high level of personal responsibility. That responsibility includes your own well being, and assuming racers are even half responsible, they shouldn't drive a setup they are uncomfortable with....

Maybe you are personally responsible enough to only run a setup that you feel is safe. But what about the guys who flips in front of you and you run him over? Or what about the new guy who hears that he has to run tucked under 2" to win? Would it be "personally responsible" of our commissioners to allow that to happen?

...1) I have seen NO factual evidence of this being a dangerous setup...

Then you haven't seen any of the numerous single boat straightaway accidents this year.

...2) The rule did NOT go to ballot even though it directly affects the drivers...

All rule changes directly effect the drivers. That is why we elect commissioners. If you don't like the way your commissioner voted, elect a different one. It is possible that you are just on the minority of this issue, and that a majority of the drivers in the country(not just region 10) see the problem here, and trust there commissioners to do whats best for them and all future racers.

...3) I see NO reason that if someone is uncomfortable with the "extreme tuck" set up that they have to run it...

We all want to win.

...4) In consideration to point 3, I see no more reason why people that are comfortable with that set up should be punished...

No one is being punished. The playing field is still even. Isn't that what is really important, that's what makes racing fun. This doesn't advantage or disadvantage anyone.

...5) I see no reason why the slower "A" boats should have to jum through all these hoops, when the faster and more dangerous "C" boats are allowed to run at 1/2...

Just because C is faster does not mean that it is more dangerous. As has been said before, the issue here is not speed and it is not height, but rather the setup specifically. The SORC has deamed that CSH is safe to run at 1/2", and I have heard or seen nothing to prove otherwise.


In conclusion I would just like to add that I am defending the idea that something needed to be done about this, not necessarily what was done, or how it was done.

[AT26M]

I forgot one thing that brian palmquist brought to my attention.
Out of all the A hydros at stock nationals in whitney point not one crashed.
That was the biggest class at nats and they didnt have one wreck, and nats is the time when everyone is driving their hardest and pressing the most. So I ask again how is this a safety issue?

[ryan_4z]

Andrew,

You have an extreme boat designed to make that setup somewhat safe. The problem is that most of us can't afford to go out and buy a new boat simply because the ones we have are more than one or two years old. Anybody who tries to run this setup on a boat that doesn't have a super wide bottom, an 18" break and 5" of lift is in a seriously dangerous position. What about a new driver who buys a good used boat, then tries to run this setup because thats what you have to do to win? I sure as hell don't want to be the person that runs a gearfoot through their helmet and kills them. I mean for christ's sake man, we lost a great man to boat racing this year. And you want to stand in the way of making our sport safer? Should someone have to be seriously hurt before we recognize a safety problem. I think Bob Wartinger knows a little bit more about safety and boat racing than you, and probably anyone else in this sport for that matter. If he says this is a problem, we ought to take his word for it.

Secondly, this ruling doesn't disadvantage anyone. I don't want to hear this sh*t about having to start from square one. You aren't fooling anybody. I don't care how fast you are, you are still gonna go testing and you are still gonna be buying props. Now you are going to be testing different setups and different props. Everyone is still racing on an even playing field.

[jpro60]

I'm just trying to state my opinion.

Hi, I understand that this IS the rule and its not going to change, and whether or not I agree with it is worthless. I am merely trying to vent some of my frustrations, and to give people a different view point on the issue from a "young" A racer, and someone who plans to run A into the future. Now, lets just get this out of the way, NO I couldn't be at every race last year, and NO I dont know what happened in most races outside of region 10. My viewpoints are as such based only on my personal observations of racing in Region 10.

You have an extreme boat designed to make that setup somewhat safe. The problem is that most of us can't afford to go out and buy a new boat simply because the ones we have are more than one or two years old. Anybody who tries to run this setup on a boat that doesn't have a super wide bottom, an 18" break and 5" of lift is in a seriously dangerous position. What about a new driver who buys a good used boat, then tries to run this setup because thats what you have to do to win?

First of all, speaking of exageration nullifying a point! I would like to point out, from a boat builders perspective that for one, modifying a boat to give it more lift is one of the easier things to modify on a boat. Also, people who don't have enough lift, shouldnt try to run this, the SORC's job should not be to stop people from doing the obviously dumb.

Should someone have to be seriously hurt before we recognize a safety problem.

No, obviously someone should not have to be hurt in order for safety to be an issue, however, (I can only speak in regards to region 10 racing) In region 10 we did not have very many accidents in A stock this year and EVERYONE out here is running at least 3/8" of tuck. No one got injured in an ASH crash. And to my recolection, all of the crashes that did happen were more attributable to not enough tuck(i.e. blowing over). AND of the perhaps 3-4 ASH crashes I can recall from this year, and even going back two or three years not one of them was a "stuff". I mention stuffing because that is the only logical form of accident that can come as a direct result of too much tuck.

Just because C is faster does not mean that it is more dangerous. As has been said before, the issue here is not speed and it is not height, but rather the setup specifically. The SORC has deamed that CSH is safe to run at 1/2", and I have heard or seen nothing to prove otherwise.

I dont even know where to begin on this. Once again, I can only speak from what I have seen. I have seen more people get injured in, and more accidents in CSH in any given year, than in 2-3 years of ASH racing. Now, you have "heard or seen nothing to prove otherwise" however I'm in the same boat in regards to ASH. Also as I have mentioned, I have seen more accidents and injurys in CSH than ASH any way you slice it. I find it hard to believe a person was killed in CSH last year and THIS of all thing was the most pressing safety issue.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Mike Perman

[G Stillwill]

I can see where you woud think with alot of tuck in the boat would stuff that would happen with a boat with normal lift but with a boat with alot of lift and only thing pushing the nose down is the power of the motors, loose that and your going over backwards as in rough water or just going over planing wakes from coming out of the pits and there were A recks at whitney point as I remeber taping up a couple boats just to make the second elim heat. I think almost any hydro now requires some amount of tuck just to balance the boat out and I run tuck in all three classes but no more than is needed and the boats I have dont need anymore than an 1/8 or so. I raced back in the 70,s with no height rule and to be fast you had to be out of control. Many a times comming down for the start the boat was sideways and really raised the pucker factor. If we dont try and keep the sport as safe as possible we wont beable to aford to race as every time someone goes to the hospital or gets hurt it gets turned over to the insurance co and our rates go up as do our dues. just my two cents and I do run AXSH so this effects me to as Im sure this applies to this class to

[csh2z]

Consider this

There is a lot that goes on at these meetings that doesn't end up in the minutes. To those of you who are running the extreme tuck set-ups. This is NOT about you. By the way Mike, 3/8" tuck is far from extreme. 1" - 2" tuck is the issue.The SORC discussed this issue for some time. We almost unanamously determined that we did not have conclusive evidence to rule one way or the other. We did determine that we should monitor the situation during the year an act appropriately next year. That evening it was brought to the attention of the APBA Board of Directors, and the APBA Safety Commitee. After some discussion they decided that something had to be done. They sent a directive to the SORC to pass a rule to address this issue. We were informed that if WE did not make a rule, THEY would. Of course, most of us were pissed off, but we all knew that this was not a bluff. We thought it our duty to pass this rule rather than probably be subjected to a much more stringent rule. This was by far the lesser of two evils. You can still tuck your motor as much as before, but you will have to lower it about 3/8"-1/2" to comply with the rule. ??? Why did the BOD interfere? It's all about the cost of, and the ability to get reasonable insurance. It is our responsibility (SORC) to try to keep our sport as safe as possible for every boat racer. This includes our best most experienced veterans, to our rookies, our children, our friends, and most importantly (to the sport), the people who are considering joining us in the future. It is the APBA BOD's responsibility to remind us of this occasionally. Like it or not, that is who we are and what we do. IF, there is a compelling reason after this upcoming season for this issue to be readdressed we will do what we have to do regardless of anyones individual opinion. Question: Do we really want 60MPH A hydros? Is that really in our best interest? Remember: we race boats for fun. Take yourself out of the equation if you can. Be objective. Thanks, John Runne

[sam]

John, thanks for the full explanation.

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

A???Rules

And why no mo kg4,boat width, boat lenght? Is this up to builders ,sellers , who's in charge? Since we have Daytona soon.

Way i see it bout 15 folks have a say in that. Is that .10 case ya missed dat ? And i ain't from OHIO. But i have loss 2# from my lass visit.

If i had my say... Daddys , should on 1st, 2, rest should be up to who it is.
I was juss lookin at my 1960 apba rule book,funny how all dat ***s to mind.
Seen ya whileago.

RichardKCMo

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

Yeah, i guess yer rite bout that, someone sho cleared yo path

I 've must not have heard eveything i needed to, but i'm sure i Will.

It has nothing to do with the speed. It is the way the boat handles. And trust me, if you know anything about racing in the 70's these guys know about driving boats that are hard to handle.



This is clearly an exageration. You shouldn't exagerate when debating it really makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.



Put some lead in the nose.



Maybe you are personally responsible enough to only run a setup that you feel is safe. But what about the guys who flips in front of you and you run him over? Or what about the new guy who hears that he has to run tucked under 2" to win? Would it be "personally responsible" of our commissioners to allow that to happen?



Then you haven't seen any of the numerous single boat straightaway accidents this year.



All rule changes directly effect the drivers. That is why we elect commissioners. If you don't like the way your commissioner voted, elect a different one. It is possible that you are just on the minority of this issue, and that a majority of the drivers in the country(not just region 10) see the problem here, and trust there commissioners to do whats best for them and all future racers.



We all want to win.



No one is being punished. The playing field is still even. Isn't that what is really important, that's what makes racing fun. This doesn't advantage or disadvantage anyone.



Just because C is faster does not mean that it is more dangerous. As has been said before, the issue here is not speed and it is not height, but rather the setup specifically. The SORC has deamed that CSH is safe to run at 1/2", and I have heard or seen nothing to prove otherwise.


In conclusion I would just like to add that I am defending the idea that something needed to be done about this, not necessarily what was done, or how it was done.

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

shades Of KG4

I really think 50 mph is limit me being a Father of a girl i think class A needs help. Other classes don't count because they are MALE oreinted? so boat designs and other ideas don't count. Actually what I ment was lack of regs. what i meant to say for all de coastersBe it L/F Is ther somthin bout wat peter said? transom????OOOHHH NNOO Had an old Van Pelt an lot a' sticks

Keep in mind the 1 3/8 being measured from the gear case split you are still running extremely tucked. You will be a little lower than before but not a huge amount. If you have a 12 boat field and the water gets rough you might not even notice any speed loss and might get a better driving boat. Go test and see. Mike