OSY400 with crash box sides, is this the future of kneel down racing?

[HRTV]

Since Europe seems to be in the forefront when it comes to hydro design will this be the future of kneel down racing in the states? It would appear that just about every serious driver state side now wants a Euro hull so what happens when the crash box design becomes mandatory? will that be the final nail in the coffin to a sport that is already on life support in parts of the US.

Chime with with your thoughts both negative and positive :-)

[epugh66]

For a counter thought, crash boxes have been required in UIM F1-F2 for a couple of years now, but APBA has not mandated them here.

Driver safety is very important, it's nice to see someone address the issue in hydro's. The current Betta Boat Chris Hellsten had at the APBA PRO Nationals was built very well. Cockpit sides were composite with a foam core.

All of the latest hydros built at Pugh Boat works have been equiped with vacuum bagged, balsa cored composite cockpits. The boats for the PRO division even have an inner wall with a gap to the outer. Now, if only they would make it to the races..

Erin Pittman has a 2013 ASH with about the same cockpit, but it was narrowed down. The Pittmans have gone to race, the boat is under weight and and has a win in AXS? and a third in ASH, or the other way around. I believe the Pittmans will be at the stock nationals.

Although I haven't seen any of the other new PRO boats, I would image if they are molding them, then they have the opportunity to make the driver area stronger to resist intrusion from another boat.

These are features hard to build into a boat with wood cockpits. The area where the deck joins is a weak spot. All this is made worse when the driver position resembles that of someone riding a kneeboard.

[HRTV]

For a counter thought, crash boxes have been required in UIM F1-F2 for a couple of years now, but APBA has not mandated them here.

Driver safety is very important, it's nice to see someone address the issue in hydro's. The current Betta Boat Chris Hellsten had at the APBA PRO Nationals was built very well. Cockpit sides were composite with a foam core.

All of the latest hydros built at Pugh Boat works have been equiped with vacuum bagged, balsa cored composite cockpits. The boats for the PRO division even have an inner wall with a gap to the outer. Now, if only they would make it to the races..

Erin Pittman has a 2013 ASH with about the same cockpit, but it was narrowed down. The Pittmans have gone to race, the boat is under weight and and has a win in AXS? and a third in ASH, or the other way around. I believe the Pittmans will be at the stock nationals.

Although I haven't seen any of the other new PRO boats, I would image if they are molding them, then they have the opportunity to make the driver area stronger to resist intrusion from another boat.

These are features hard to build into a boat with wood cockpits. The area where the deck joins is a weak spot. All this is made worse when the driver position resembles that of someone riding a kneeboard.

Very informative post Eric thanks, what are your thoughts on the future of wood hulls in kneel down racing? As safety measures are implemented do you see a sunset happening of all wood hulls in the near future?

Thanks

[epugh66]

I'm just a guy on the shoreline, but I think the wood boat will be around for along time to come. The racer can still build a wood boat themselves as long as they have the talent, and I think it's probably cheaper too. Now, if I had ten boats for the same class to build a year, molding one makes a lot of sense.

[BillCNC]

Great topic, ... subscribed.

Bill

[Dave M]

Composites

I have been building foam core and balsa core hydros for several years now. I use a mixture of Kevlar and graphite for the sandwhich. With the Baltek panels, it is very easy to use today. Expensive, yes, but actually easier to build than a traditional wood boat. I put a vaccum table and pump together 9 years ago and still use it today. My first all carbon fiber hydro was not a good one, hence why I purchased a pump and built the table. One can achieve the same results without a pump, but it will require more work and prep. Weight achieves the same end result if done correctly. Get creative with the clamping and it can be done.

As far as a crash box for kneelers here in the states, some already achieve that result in their design. Might not be an air bag in there, but if you get T-Boned, mine are designed to deflect and absorb the impact. Nothing will ever be deemed 100% safe by me. Racing has an inherent risk, and there is no way possible to protect ourselves from every danger. So one has to consider cost and what the market will bear. Most grass roots style of racing won't support the extra cost.

[epugh66]

I was getting the white water kayaks and canoes ready for a trip tomorrow but I kept thinking about this topic.

The crash box will work as good as the bumper on your car. What happens when one boat jumps over the other one? Will the crash box still work? Will it stop the lower unit and prop from getting the driver?

After James Aderholdt was hurt in Europe a few years ago by another boat climbing over his, Gary built the cockpit mold he has today. As a driver in a kneeler or laydown, you're still very exposed. The Kevlar suit will help, higher and stronger coamings will help, but you're still very exposed.

I believe the crash boxes used on F1-2 boats are intended to absorb some of the impact when one tunnel is locked into the water and then gets T boned by another. It's an extension of the cockpit which already does a great job of protecting drivers in barrel rolls, blow overs and glancing collisions.

Like Dave said, laminating up cockpit sides under vacuum is fairly simple and produces a strong cockpit for the driver. Done properly, they should be lighter and stronger than the same sized plywood one.

BTW, the kayak only covers me from the waist down and I'm very exposed, but at least there are not any propellors around. It's made out of Tupperware too.

[HRTV]

I was getting the white water kayaks and canoes ready for a trip tomorrow but I kept thinking about this topic.

The crash box will work as good as the bumper on your car. What happens when one boat jumps over the other one? Will the crash box still work? Will it stop the lower unit and prop from getting the driver?

After James Aderholdt was hurt in Europe a few years ago by another boat climbing over his, Gary built the cockpit mold he has today. As a driver in a kneeler or laydown, you're still very exposed. The Kevlar suit will help, higher and stronger coamings will help, but you're still very exposed.

I believe the crash boxes used on F1-2 boats are intended to absorb some of the impact when one tunnel is locked into the water and then gets T boned by another. It's an extension of the cockpit which already does a great job of protecting drivers in barrel rolls, blow overs and glancing collisions.

Like Dave said, laminating up cockpit sides under vacuum is fairly simple and produces a strong cockpit for the driver. Done properly, they should be lighter and stronger than the same sized plywood one.

BTW, the kayak only covers me from the waist down and I'm very exposed, but at least there are not any propellors around. It's made out of Tupperware too.

This is a tough one Eric I agree with your theory on crash boxes in a lay down or kneel down hydro will simply be good bumpers which will help in the event of a t-bone. Tough call to say the least, this topic might have to fall in the category of personal preference since the drivers body is still exposed and not strapped in. Will we ever see a Pro lay down capsule? that's the real question :-) will the drivers body position prevent this from being effective?

Lets hear from the physics engineers in the crowd :-)

[David Weaver]

Good Discussion

I have seen an enclosed laydown hydroplane, but it was not a capsule. I am not sure how the restrains would work in a laydown capsule.

Assuming kneelers and laydown boats continue, is there a point where drivers make better decisions based their awareness that they are exposed? We cannot make a boat "bullet proof".

Do attempts at safety create a false sense of security? Just a question. I am all in favor of safety and there good measures being taken to improve safety.

Same kind of discussion is going on in football. Have larger helmets resulted in more risky tackles (and more concussions)?

I believe that the biggest contributor to safety is a drivers ability to control the throttle. It can be argued that the biggest contributor to accidents is a drivers inability to control the throttle.

I like the idea of the pod around the cockpit. It is not bullet proof, but it can help deflect a blow away from the cockpit.

[STEVE FRENCH]

Seems Matt (Arltralite) and several others offer pre-made carbon cockpit panels to use when building a wood boat.....I think Scott built a FEH for Palmer with them?....Look'd good also! I remember it before this paint https://hydroracer.net/forums/showthr...ghlight=palmer.....Any pics back then Richie?
PS, No charge for the bump Rich......Still have her?

perhaps.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Powder-Coate...item5d410e0c25

Won't happen??....check out the "Outlaw snowmobles"...Never thought I'd race a Sit-Down sled....with a CAGE!!... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLrwOYRIZxA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNsG0aH5rh4

Even Go-Karts....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdIVyldojqw

No helmet cams or pickle points ta poke ya either.........OPPS, The snowmobles do have skis that in the rare incidense, could stick ya.

But, Then again...Ya can't fix STUPID......either....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vI7U43OT1k ...>"She's run'n hot....and start'n a little...rough!"...OPPS!


Down hill ski'ers that race, have points also....perhaps they should have carbon kevlar body panels. and side protection?......Seen a few folks stuck in the sides over the years as a Ski Patrol'er!

Even the farm tractor is dangerous when raced.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnCywohEjWQ

Every moving sport has it's chances of impact.....Perhaps radio control everything?....Nope, R/C air-planes have stuck a few drivers......spectator's also.........

"Chime with with your thoughts both negative and positive :-) "
None of the above.....Just my......usual, relative, poetic............ NONSENCE ..errr...NONSENSE (your choice).............. Hi Bobby!

[Dave M]

Exactly David

[QUOTE=David Weaver;225069Do attempts at safety create a false sense of security? Just a question. I am all in favor of safety and there good measures being taken to improve safety.

Same kind of discussion is going on in football. Have larger helmets resulted in more risky tackles (and more concussions)?

I believe that the biggest contributor to safety is a drivers ability to control the throttle. It can be argued that the biggest contributor to accidents is a drivers inability to control the throttle.
.[/QUOTE]

I have seen it first hand in kneelers. When Kevlar was first mandated in APBA to be in the Mod Boats cockpits people felt bullet proof. Most grass roots racers feel the organization knows best. Must be safer it is kevlar, they make bullet proof vest out of it ! So they assume more risk than they would with regular wood sides. Development of hulls needs to occur, but at what cost ? If we empower people with rules, and nothing more it is a failure. If you empower people with knowledge, and create a choice, the right choices are typically made.

I honestly believe with the kevlar suites we wear, the updated helmets, the re-enforced cockpits we run, and the basic advanced design in hulls is a bad combination. A lot of newer designed boats turn better than ever before. They accelerate faster than ever before. They achieve top speeds faster than ever before. All is a growth within my racing career. And I feel that is to fast of growth. We have not improved on driving skills, course layouts, turn judge education and enforcement, etc. Instead of honing skills on how fast a boat can go, we should be honing our skills on how to NOT create a situation that everyone has to avoid on the race course.

[STEVE FRENCH]

As long as we have "The NEED for SPEED!!"........ https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.ph...type=2&theater