SORC Please Consider "Parity"

[Big Don]

Who had the 302 at grass lake with the fastest time? The two fastest guys on the water that I saw were pater and swain, both 102's. One illigal unfortunately, but clearly pater's 102 motor is the fastest. He personally has no insentive to switch to a 302. Your conclusion that 302 had a better year may be true. I personally set 3 records in CSR/25ssr (2 full, 1 95%) with a 302...

Here's something to chew on. What most of you did not see was Yelm, WA 2012 in September. This IS THE FASTEST WATER i've ever raced on. 1 mile record course top CSH on Sunday had these entries:
Pavlick- 102 (1)
Pater/Allen-102 (2)
Peeters-302 (3)
JMK-302 (which was mine! not letting him barrow anything any more! lol) (4)
Lewis-302 (5)
Nilsen-302 (6)
Sullivan-302 (7)
Bahl-302 (8)
Malhiot in Permans rig-302 (DNF)

rest of region 10 guys entries all 302's. 18 entires total

Who won? Pavlick with allen in second. Go watch the youtube video of Lewis race with Allen in Pater's rig. Allen has about 1 1/2 mph top end on Lewis. Allen passed me like i was standing still (granted i know i have work to do in csh). The point is the 102 won, going away, not even close on a record course. Pavilick was about a straightway ahead.

I personally don't know what, if anything, the SORC should do for CSH. It's a great class that doesn't need really any fixing, except this minor detail. 302's are not nessessarily not being bought because 102's are faster. It is a great cheap way to get into racing still. I do know Ricky's inventory hasn't changed much in a few years, but that could be a number of factors. My CSR is a 302 and I've proven faster than other top 102's. Maybe the difference is between a hydro and runabout....?

Either way it's a fun and healthy discussion. I think we're all on the internet too much and need a boat fix! when's winternationals?!

Maybe we should just ban Pavlick, Pater & this Allen kid.

[17W]

Ha!

Maybe we should just ban Pavlick, Pater & this Allen kid.

Then they could go to an NBRA race & take the prize money!

[Big Don]

think the 11-W will handle that C Mod you're building?

[WilliamsRacingTeam]

I see what John sees.

I personally believe the 302 is a faster motor in the west only because us in Region 10 use them week in and week out. Most of us in the west threw out the 102's years ago. Most guys in the midwest and east coast that still run 102's and have not switched to 302's because they don't have to. They tested and made their motors fast 20 years ago and they are still fast(example Joe Pater). What is their motivation to switch to a 302? Look at the A class. Sidewinder came in and should be the dominte motor from here on out. But people won't be holding on to OMC's because they're fast (like the 102's).

Look at the history of winners at nationals with 302's (if there's anymore that i'm not listing let me know):
04 or 02? OSY-JMK
07 CSH- Mike Perman
08 CSH- Mike Perman
10 CSH-JMK
10 25ssr- JMK
10 CSR- Me
11 CSR- Me
Any 20ssh's?

John Peeters, pretty sure your OSY is not a 302? not sure...

Anyway, Pretty sure that's all of them, but it's pretty clear Region 10 has figured something that everyone else has not. No one outside the west has won with 302's. My guess is we just run the hell out of them and stopped racing 102's. That CAN"T BE THE CASE ANYMORE. Somehow the 302 needs to be the C classes motor of choice for west, midwest, east, south racers. not just west.

If John decides to run his 102's in stock he is validated in doing so. Just look at nationals winners and you can determine that on your own. Me? i'll stick with my 302 still.

You forgot the 19th one in Yelm, Brett Williams from Region 11. He is 15 years old running his first year in 20SSH. Saturday he took 2nd on both heats. First heat Sunday he held off Mike for 2 laps before Mike barely passed him to set a 20SSH Record that day. He runs a 302.

See Christina Gleason's picture http://sponsonhead.smugmug.com/Outbo...8417&k=d8c4XfT

[propnuts]

These posts are all proving a point

The point is that there is a big difference between a snapshot (individual race results) and a trend (several results WITHIN a controlled environment). Even if we were to dyno 2 different makes of motors side by side we wouldn't know which one is faster or would win more races (unless one was WAY different). As with the claimed 2MPH difference, without big chunks of data that we will never be able to collect, we kind of have to go on what we see.

[Charlie Pater]

Who had the 302 at grass lake with the fastest time? The two fastest guys on the water that I saw were pater and swain, both 102's. One illigal unfortunately, but clearly pater's 102 motor is the fastest. He personally has no insentive to switch to a 302. Your conclusion that 302 had a better year may be true. I personally set 3 records in CSR/25ssr (2 full, 1 95%) with a 302...

Here's something to chew on. What most of you did not see was Yelm, WA 2012 in September. This IS THE FASTEST WATER i've ever raced on. 1 mile record course top CSH on Sunday had these entries:
Pavlick- 102 (1)
Pater/Allen-102 (2)
Peeters-302 (3)
JMK-302 (which was mine! not letting him barrow anything any more! lol) (4)
Lewis-302 (5)
Nilsen-302 (6)
Sullivan-302 (7)
Bahl-302 (8)
Malhiot in Permans rig-302 (DNF)

rest of region 10 guys entries all 302's. 18 entires total

Who won? Pavlick with allen in second. Go watch the youtube video of Lewis race with Allen in Pater's rig. Allen has about 1 1/2 mph top end on Lewis. Allen passed me like i was standing still (granted i know i have work to do in csh). The point is the 102 won, going away, not even close on a record course. Pavilick was about a straightway ahead.

I personally don't know what, if anything, the SORC should do for CSH. It's a great class that doesn't need really any fixing, except this minor detail. 302's are not nessessarily not being bought because 102's are faster. It is a great cheap way to get into racing still. I do know Ricky's inventory hasn't changed much in a few years, but that could be a number of factors. My CSR is a 302 and I've proven faster than other top 102's. Maybe the difference is between a hydro and runabout....?

Either way it's a fun and healthy discussion. I think we're all on the internet too much and need a boat fix! when's winternationals?!

Kyle – I was thinking about the above post. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe you are mistaken about the motors used in the race. The Pavlick and Pater/Allen CSHs were using 302s. I am 99.9% sure about that but you can check with Mike or Don about it. Joe is currently out of the country so we cannot verify with him. Also, Joe had wanted to use a 302 on the runabout but could not because the two motors available were on the CSHs. Apparently your CSR did a good job against Joe’s 102.

I guess your point the 102s finished one and two is wrong. What happened is Midwest 302s came in one and two. Based on your analysis that Allen had 1˝ MPH on Lewis and passed you like you were standing still, I believe there may be an opportunity for the West coast 302s to find some speed.

[reed28n]

been traveling

I have a question. What is the logic to dropping the Yamato's out of 25SSR? How many "newbies" that get into our sport actually care about competing Nationally? Speaking for myself (and I bet the rest of Team Casual) we race for the fun it first and foremost. How everything shakes out at the end of the season is secondary. It’s my opinion that the current 25ssr format is one of the best deals going in SO racing. Get yourself a decent runabout with either a 102 / 302 and for an additional investment of $17.00 buy a restrictor plate and you can potentially run 2 classes ( CSR / 25SSR). Beyond all the things I mentioned above it’s my guess that my Club MHRA would feel the pain $$$$$ in a big way if the current 25ssr class was dismantled……………..just my two cents.

My suggestion would be to lower the weight slightly is CSR and draw all of the 11'6" boats into one runabout class. remove all the weight and restrictor combinations and motor combinations for that size driver and boat.

Simplify the class and run multiple races of CSR. I would rather not have you spend the $17 for the restrictor and spend time testing two different prop, restrictor and weight combinations. I would rather see us run more heats or more races with the exact same motor and set up. I feel that is a better value.

[G Stillwill]

Jill which is on the parity commity and kept very good records of all the heats that were run in ASR and ASH in reg 3 which Jeff has. They show there was not clear differance between the good OMC and the Sidewinders in the A class. This was 2 weekends at Millville NJ and two weekends at Lockhaven PA. That includes 10 races in both classes that equals 40 heats of racing and that is the big picture.

[reed28n]

Uh oh

Jill which is on the parity commity and kept very good records of all the heats that were run in ASR and ASH in reg 3 which Jeff has. They show there was not clear differance between the good OMC and the Sidewinders in the A class. This was 2 weekends at Millville NJ and two weekends at Lockhaven PA. That includes 10 races in both classes that equals 40 heats of racing and that is the big picture.

George you can't rely on facts and data. I am sure somone will try to poke holes is that.

This sport is about emotions and feelings.

[ottawamercguy]

CSR and 25ssR

If we put all 11'6" boats in one class we lose revenue at races
unless, as suggested, there are multiple heats. I region 1, as we all
know by now mostly the same boats run two classes. In addition
heavy or light drivers lose a class that is more appropriate to them.
25ssR is a great class as is why change it ?

[doc 35-0]

lost revenue

Why can't we renegoiate the cost of insurance and sanction fee? We have to run all these classes to pay for insurance that is way out of line. Most drivers want to get more racing from their rig than two heats, because of the miles and time that is spent going to the race. Most of the races have to start by ten am to get it all in....We did away with a class that was just a repeat of the same group...Three heat racing is not a bad idea. Combining the class will reduce at least one heat and reduce the cost to the driver. Go out and sell a race for money and then reduce the entre fee and or pay tow money. If you make the AX mercury lighter so it is just as fast as the A then it is one class. You run both together and it speeds the program along...Nothing worse than a three or four boats in race. Since we make our own rules , we make the rules to our advantage. We have multi winners and we all go home happy. The spectators do not go home happy however.

[Racerkyle20]

Kyle – I was thinking about the above post. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe you are mistaken about the motors used in the race. The Pavlick and Pater/Allen CSHs were using 302s. I am 99.9% sure about that but you can check with Mike or Don about it. Joe is currently out of the country so we cannot verify with him. Also, Joe had wanted to use a 302 on the runabout but could not because the two motors available were on the CSHs. Apparently your CSR did a good job against Joe’s 102.

I guess your point the 102s finished one and two is wrong. What happened is Midwest 302s came in one and two. Based on your analysis that Allen had 1˝ MPH on Lewis and passed you like you were standing still, I believe there may be an opportunity for the West coast 302s to find some speed.

They were 102's accordingto inspection I was at.

[Big Don]

I think Donny & Kyle are together with Team Red today...maybe one of them can let us know after they talk.

I would, but I was told I can't speak for the team any longer.

Here is a hint though...look at the Gleason's pictures they might tell us something...

http://sponsonhead.smugmug.com/Outbo...5606804_gBPZNq

[PittmanRacing]

Hmmm......running two engines side by side on the dyno won't tell us anything? Yes there are many factors on the race course that determine the outcome of a race. If the question is simply motors, seems there is a scientific way to gather facts.

Paul

[pav225]

dyno

Paul,
Excellent idea. Does anyone know if there is any dyno data available for A motors? That may be more objective than race results. We might as well include OMC, Merc, and Sidewinder if the data is available.

Mike