SORC Please Consider "Parity"

[pav225]

As we were driving home from a day of testing in 37F and constant drizzle, I was thinking about the current state of racing, especially in the Stock Category. There seems to be a belief by some that anyone should be able to buy “new” equipment and instantly move to the front of the pack and win races. Let’s face it, life doesn’t work that way and neither does racing. Reality is that the folks who put in the most time, effort, and money will have greater success than those that don’t.

While it always struck me as “not quite right”, I couldn’t articulate why I don’t believe the myth that anyone should be able to buy “new” equipment and win; at least without a significant amount of effort. Driving home from testing, it became much clearer to me. To share my thoughts, I will walk through an example. Before I present my example, I need to state that I believe new motors are good for the sport. I believe that there should always be a rational transition period for new motors and that there needs to be “parity” between multiple motor options otherwise everyone loses; drivers, APBA, and motor manufacturers.

I hope Dave Bennett doesn’t mind, but I am going to use him for this example. Dave was chasing ASH High Points and came to the Fall Grass Lake race. If you don’t already know, Dave has one of the fastest, if not the fastest ASH in the country. Dave is very talented and has spent countless hours working on his equipment (boats, motors, and props) and testing to find that last tenth of a mile an hour. Given the amount of effort he puts in, Dave deserves to be the fastest ASH in the country.

Back to Grass Lake….Dave needed to win his last three races in order to win the ASH High Point Title. He nailed his starts and got (2) 1sts and (1) 3rd. His 3rd place came behind two drivers that were running a different motor than Dave. I would estimate they both had at least 2 MPH on Dave. When the first boat passed Dave on the backstretch, I initially thought that Dave backed off, or that he was suffering from a mechanical problem. That’s how significant the speed difference was. No disrespect to the two other drivers, but I am fairly confident that they have not put in a fraction of the time and effort that Dave has, and yet they were significantly faster than Dave.

Knowing that Dave is a fierce competitor, and that “doing nothing” is not an option, he realistically has three options: 1) Work harder with current motor, 2) Race Formula A, 3) Buy the new motor.

Option 1: Work harder with current motor. Realistically, Dave has extracted 99% out of the current boat, motor, prop combination that is available. Even if he doubled his efforts, it is doubtful that he would gain more than a few tenths of a MPH. That would still leave him 1.5+ MPH slower than he needs to win.

Option 2: Race Formula A. A very easy switch, as his Stock A would be able to run at the front of the FAH pack. This move would result in a loss for the STOCK Category. Not to speak for Dave, but with fewer racers in FAH than in ASH, he may lose interest without a large field of competitors pushing him. This could be a loss for APBA if he gets “bored” and quits racing.

Option 3: Buy a new motor. This would quickly give Dave the additional 2 MPH that he needs to be back out front. He would need to spend $4500 on the motor, and most likely he would update his props or make/buy new ones. This may be a good option for Dave, but let’s walk it through to see how it may impact the class…

We know Dave is a fierce competitor, so I can assume that he will put in the same amount of effort with the new motor as he did with the old. He may refine his boat and props, and he will definitely test a lot. As a result, Dave will soon be back at the front of the pack. Part of his success will be due to the new motor, and part will be due to his efforts. So where does this leave the ASH class? For the folks that bought new motors, they will now be “only” 1-2 MPH slower than Dave. For folks running the old motors, they will now be 3-4 MPH slower than Dave. Essentially, we are in the same situation that we had before the new motor; Dave is the fastest ASH in the country. Only now, the gap between the fastest boat and the slowest boat has widened as Dave is now an additional 2+ MPH faster with the new motor. Racers, who have spent a lot of money on a new motor to leapfrog the fastest ASH in the country, now find themselves behind Dave again. Folks that chose not to buy a new motor, or couldn’t afford to, now find themselves at least another 2 MPH slower than Dave. This will be incredibly frustrating to them; especially the ones that cannot afford a new motor.

So, how will this impact the ASH class as a whole? Essentially, everyone who wants to compete will need to purchase a new motor, and most likely new props. Potentially even a new boat. If the racers, who were the top runners with the old motor, buy a new motor (and put in the effort) they will again rise to be top runners. This results in the same running order as today, only it cost every driver an additional $4500-$5K+ to get there. Essentially, you are taxing the folks who race the class $5K to be able to maintain their current position. For those that can’t afford the $5K to compete, they will get very discouraged by now being 3-4 MPH slower than the top runners. I assume their frustration will grow and they switch over to FAH or quit racing. None of this is very appealing for the ASH class, the Stock Category, or even the motor manufacturers.

So what option does the Stock Category have to maintain current members, or grow the class by attracting new members? I believe that “parity” plays a big part in the success of any class. We have seen it work well with the Y80s and Y302s in the 20ssH class and with the Mercs and Tohatsu in D. If a new motor is close in performance to the top runners (top 50%??), then we have achieved “parity” and have a good foundation for growth. We don’t force out the existing racers, while at the same time we provide a new motor that (new or old) racers can buy and be competitive very quickly. With some effort, a new racer can purchase a new motor and quickly move to the front half of the pack. Racers with “good” old motors can still be competitive with their current equipment. Essentially, “parity” allows us to maintain our current base of racers, while providing new motors that will support growth in the class. While it takes effort to achieve, it is a win-win proposition.

SORC, please consider the topic of “parity” a subject for this year’s National Meeting.

Mike

[14J]

Mother CAT needs to find more work for you Mr Pavlick. You have far to much time on your hands.

[Tomtall]

Parity ?

Mike - Great read with much thought put into it.You do realize that the OMC 15 is going to be pushed out of A class in the next few years. Yes I know you know this as it has been a topic for 3 years now since the Sidewinder has been being made better every year. You do realize that politics play a major roll in APBA. You know, the good ole boy syndrome. Its been a part of APBA for a LONG time. I used to see the factory boyz have fun playing with peoples pocket books year after year in OPC. Well they are no longer in the game of running APBA like they used too. Some are still in the background as advisors but for the most part they got bored and now we just have the private special interest groups that talk on there phones at night figuring ways to get what they want for their own gain. I have already heard all the lamb duck reasons that will be thrown out at the national meeting on this site to support leaving the Sidewinder as is and I almost guarantee you that the sport will lose A class participant in the next several years in doing so. But hay, what do I care we nonger race that class. Heck who knows, maybe people will get their wish of less classes if we only have the Sidewinder and Yamatos as engine choices.

I'm still trying to figure out what happend with the Tohotsu D motor issue. Oh wait, I think politics were a part of that too.

[mercguy]

Mike - Great read with much thought put into it.You do realize that the OMC 15 is going to be pushed out of A class in the next few years. Yes I know you know this as it has been a topic for 3 years now since the Sidewinder has been being made better every year. You do realize that politics play a major roll in APBA. You know, the good ole boy syndrome. Its been a part of APBA for a LONG time. I used to see the factory boyz have fun playing with peoples pocket books year after year in OPC. Well they are no longer in the game of running APBA like they used too. Some are still in the background as advisors but for the most part they got bored and now we just have the private special interest groups that talk on there phones at night figuring ways to get what they want for their own gain. I have already heard all the lamb duck reasons that will be thrown out at the national meeting on this site to support leaving the Sidewinder as is and I almost guarantee you that the sport will lose A class participant in the next several years in doing so. But hay, what do I care we nonger race that class. Heck who knows, maybe people will get their wish of less classes if we only have the Sidewinder and Yamatos as engine choices.

I'm still trying to figure out what happend with the Tohotsu D motor issue. Oh wait, I think politics were a part of that too.

"I'm still trying to figure out what happend with the Tohotsu D motor issue. Oh wait, I think politics were a part of that too"

....please explain......

[Nilsen Racing]

I like it.

As we were driving home from a day of testing in 37F and constant drizzle, I was thinking about the current state of racing, especially in the Stock Category. There seems to be a belief by some that anyone should be able to buy “new” equipment and instantly move to the front of the pack and win races. Let’s face it, life doesn’t work that way and neither does racing. Reality is that the folks who put in the most time, effort, and money will have greater success than those that don’t.

While it always struck me as “not quite right”, I couldn’t articulate why I don’t believe the myth that anyone should be able to buy “new” equipment and win; at least without a significant amount of effort. Driving home from testing, it became much clearer to me. To share my thoughts, I will walk through an example. Before I present my example, I need to state that I believe new motors are good for the sport. I believe that there should always be a rational transition period for new motors and that there needs to be “parity” between multiple motor options otherwise everyone loses; drivers, APBA, and motor manufacturers.

I hope Dave Bennett doesn’t mind, but I am going to use him for this example. Dave was chasing ASH High Points and came to the Fall Grass Lake race. If you don’t already know, Dave has one of the fastest, if not the fastest ASH in the country. Dave is very talented and has spent countless hours working on his equipment (boats, motors, and props) and testing to find that last tenth of a mile an hour. Given the amount of effort he puts in, Dave deserves to be the fastest ASH in the country.

Back to Grass Lake….Dave needed to win his last three races in order to win the ASH High Point Title. He nailed his starts and got (2) 1sts and (1) 3rd. His 3rd place came behind two drivers that were running a different motor than Dave. I would estimate they both had at least 2 MPH on Dave. When the first boat passed Dave on the backstretch, I initially thought that Dave backed off, or that he was suffering from a mechanical problem. That’s how significant the speed difference was. No disrespect to the two other drivers, but I am fairly confident that they have not put in a fraction of the time and effort that Dave has, and yet they were significantly faster than Dave.

Knowing that Dave is a fierce competitor, and that “doing nothing” is not an option, he realistically has three options: 1) Work harder with current motor, 2) Race Formula A, 3) Buy the new motor.

Option 1: Work harder with current motor. Realistically, Dave has extracted 99% out of the current boat, motor, prop combination that is available. Even if he doubled his efforts, it is doubtful that he would gain more than a few tenths of a MPH. That would still leave him 1.5+ MPH slower than he needs to win.

Option 2: Race Formula A. A very easy switch, as his Stock A would be able to run at the front of the FAH pack. This move would result in a loss for the STOCK Category. Not to speak for Dave, but with fewer racers in FAH than in ASH, he may lose interest without a large field of competitors pushing him. This could be a loss for APBA if he gets “bored” and quits racing.

Option 3: Buy a new motor. This would quickly give Dave the additional 2 MPH that he needs to be back out front. He would need to spend $4500 on the motor, and most likely he would update his props or make/buy new ones. This may be a good option for Dave, but let’s walk it through to see how it may impact the class…

We know Dave is a fierce competitor, so I can assume that he will put in the same amount of effort with the new motor as he did with the old. He may refine his boat and props, and he will definitely test a lot. As a result, Dave will soon be back at the front of the pack. Part of his success will be due to the new motor, and part will be due to his efforts. So where does this leave the ASH class? For the folks that bought new motors, they will now be “only” 1-2 MPH slower than Dave. For folks running the old motors, they will now be 3-4 MPH slower than Dave. Essentially, we are in the same situation that we had before the new motor; Dave is the fastest ASH in the country. Only now, the gap between the fastest boat and the slowest boat has widened as Dave is now an additional 2+ MPH faster with the new motor. Racers, who have spent a lot of money on a new motor to leapfrog the fastest ASH in the country, now find themselves behind Dave again. Folks that chose not to buy a new motor, or couldn’t afford to, now find themselves at least another 2 MPH slower than Dave. This will be incredibly frustrating to them; especially the ones that cannot afford a new motor.

So, how will this impact the ASH class as a whole? Essentially, everyone who wants to compete will need to purchase a new motor, and most likely new props. Potentially even a new boat. If the racers, who were the top runners with the old motor, buy a new motor (and put in the effort) they will again rise to be top runners. This results in the same running order as today, only it cost every driver an additional $4500-$5K+ to get there. Essentially, you are taxing the folks who race the class $5K to be able to maintain their current position. For those that can’t afford the $5K to compete, they will get very discouraged by now being 3-4 MPH slower than the top runners. I assume their frustration will grow and they switch over to FAH or quit racing. None of this is very appealing for the ASH class, the Stock Category, or even the motor manufacturers.

So what option does the Stock Category have to maintain current members, or grow the class by attracting new members? I believe that “parity” plays a big part in the success of any class. We have seen it work well with the Y80s and Y302s in the 20ssH class and with the Mercs and Tohatsu in D. If a new motor is close in performance to the top runners (top 50%??), then we have achieved “parity” and have a good foundation for growth. We don’t force out the existing racers, while at the same time we provide a new motor that (new or old) racers can buy and be competitive very quickly. With some effort, a new racer can purchase a new motor and quickly move to the front half of the pack. Racers with “good” old motors can still be competitive with their current equipment. Essentially, “parity” allows us to maintain our current base of racers, while providing new motors that will support growth in the class. While it takes effort to achieve, it is a win-win proposition.

SORC, please consider the topic of “parity” a subject for this year’s National Meeting.

Mike

Well put Mike.

Jim

[daveracerdsh]

Good thoughts

I also agree with most of what Mike says....as a stock commisioner, I try and look at thing from the perspective of numbers. In 2012, we had something like 400 drivers make a start in a stock hydro across the country. That may be a person making one start at a race to make a class, or somebody like myself that ran strictly stock last year, or a racer that has a super license, like many people in region 10 do, and ran in other catagories. Out of a population in the United States of something like 325,000,000....400 people ran a stock outboard hydro or runaboat at a sanctioned APBA event last year. Pretty sobering numbers to say the least. That being said....we as a commission cannot afford to make ANY rules at the national meeting in a little over 2 weeks that makes membership numbers go down. If we had 20,000 people racing...which we should...things could be looked at from a different perspective. I do not have a problem with different motors running in the same class....other forms of motor sports racing do it, such as go karts, motorcycles, you name it. Why should stock outboard be any different? And for the argument that spectators (such as they are) get confused by multiple motors in the same class...hell..I get confused sometimes at a race with the number of Yamato classes we have running....If you do not pay attention to the PA announcer it is hard to tell if it is 20ss, CSH, OSY, etc...you get my drift. Parity? I sure don't want to upset Alex Polikoff or anybody else, but I do not think it would be right for a racer to just go out and "buy" thier way to the front of the pack right away with a new motor. Part of the enjoyment I get out of racing D stock hydro, and especially the Tohatsu, is putting all the pieces together to make a nationals winning ride. I would bet Darren feels the same way....If all of the restrictions were to be taken off the Tohatsu D motor, It would win every race entered....what fun is that? Not for me. I hope the stock commision takes a sensible approach to all of the issues at hand....we sure can't afford to make an mistakes with the serious issues we have coming up. 9US

[raceright]

I also agree with most of what Mike says....as a stock commisioner, I try and look at thing from the perspective of numbers. In 2012, we had something like 400 drivers make a start in a stock hydro across the country. That may be a person making one start at a race to make a class, or somebody like myself that ran strictly stock last year, or a racer that has a super license, like many people in region 10 do, and ran in other catagories. Out of a population in the United States of something like 325,000,000....400 people ran a stock outboard hydro or runaboat at a sanctioned APBA event last year. Pretty sobering numbers to say the least. That being said....we as a commission cannot afford to make ANY rules at the national meeting in a little over 2 weeks that makes membership numbers go down. If we had 20,000 people racing...which we should...things could be looked at from a different perspective. I do not have a problem with different motors running in the same class....other forms of motor sports racing do it, such as go karts, motorcycles, you name it. Why should stock outboard be any different? And for the argument that spectators (such as they are) get confused by multiple motors in the same class...hell..I get confused sometimes at a race with the number of Yamato classes we have running....If you do not pay attention to the PA announcer it is hard to tell if it is 20ss, CSH, OSY, etc...you get my drift. Parity? I sure don't want to upset Alex Polikoff or anybody else, but I do not think it would be right for a racer to just go out and "buy" thier way to the front of the pack right away with a new motor. Part of the enjoyment I get out of racing D stock hydro, and especially the Tohatsu, is putting all the pieces together to make a nationals winning ride. I would bet Darren feels the same way....If all of the restrictions were to be taken off the Tohatsu D motor, It would win every race entered....what fun is that? Not for me. I hope the stock commision takes a sensible approach to all of the issues at hand....we sure can't afford to make an mistakes with the serious issues we have coming up. 9US

As a stock commissioner will you be at Dallas??? I will. I do not know your name if you wish PM me or state here your name. We could have a cup of coffee at Starbucks (only making a joke) Any way as our feelings about weapons are different, so are our feelings about racing, buy your way to winning,hardly-there are those Like the infamous Eddie that will be up front in what ever he races,in stock outboard as well as the Scotts from N.Y. Just the way it is.
In Pro it is Mckean,Kirts, Kriers and several others makes no difference as to what it is-- money or no money there are those that will always figure how to get up front.
New equipment on the other hand( that is not obsolete) only levels the field and gives the less skilled Driver a chance to learn how to develop those skills.
This can be debated for hours but restricting Sidewinder and making them build a out of date engine so those with obsolete designs can still win is totally foolish. And the Tohatsu, what a mistake. When they first showed up I said wow now I might race Stock,I can buy a engine that little know about and be on a level field.
I know having no experience with Merc's I will never be able to run with the guys that have been racing them for 40 years.

Since then I have stopped driving and have Brian Payne driving for me as well as my son Jimmy Wright.
So the flame in my gut is still lit, we have won several Championships with Konig type designs that Konny up dated with several newer options. But if you never raced a Konig or Konny you can buy a new Konny and be very competitive. This will give you a chance to develop the skill to run up front, making potential drivers jump through hoops to find old engines only causes people to give up before you even know the are there.
It is suppose to be harder to get started in Alkies and not easier than stock.

[G Stillwill]

So Dave didnt win all three races and only won two of them gee to me that doesnt show that the Sidewinder was the dominent motor there. I raced against the very good OMC's and got beat by them and sure didnt have two miles an hour on them. Oh and an OMC just broke the record twice out west running against a very good Sidewinder. What it means now a person can buy a motor and run with the best in the country but thats only if you get a good start and can drive the boat, isnt that what racing is about. I havent bought one new prop what worked before works just fine now.

[Fast Jack]

Paridy

Please Read PLAN D ---the A class has 2 changes - Allow the Merc to run at a lighter weight and add weight to the Sidewinder. Both of these changes may increase entries in the A classes and closer compitition. No changes are made to the OMC allowing the past entries to compeat without changes.

[pav225]

?

No idea what your point is. Please PM Dave if you want to buy him Starbucks and talk guns.

[pav225]

My comment above was for "raceright".

[raceright]

No idea what your point is. Please PM Dave if you want to buy him Starbucks and talk guns.

ya have to read the whole post it does talk about parity (ugggg)

[pav225]

.

George,
Good points. Please note...I'm not saying that Sidewinders shouldnt be fast...just saying if they are too fast, it will negatively impact the class.

I think Donny only set 1 record at Yelm. As we stated before, the SW was almost 2 MPH faster than Donny. Donny simply out started and outdrove the faster boat.

You're building new boats for your SWs. Will they be the same size as your OMC A boats?

Mike

[pav225]

Dave at Grass Lake

Needs to be noted that Dave nailed all 3 starts at Grass Lake. The other 2 boats did not start nearly as well. Dave had a large lead coming out of the first turn in the 3rd race and was EASILY passed.

I know the facts as I was there and intently watching the race. I knew Dave was there chasing High Points.

[Yellowjacket]

buy your way to winning,hardly-there are those Like the infamous Eddie that will be up front in what ever he races,in stock outboard as well as the Scotts from N.Y. Just the way it is.
In Pro it is Mckean,Kirts, Kriers and several others makes no difference as to what it is-- money or no money there are those that will always figure how to get up front.

Excellent observation.

When I was in college (U of F) we were doing an urban vehicle design competition. A group of us budding engineers went Daytona a week before the 500 and got a VIP tour to talk to some of the NASCAR teams about how to design safety structures (something that wasn't widely know in 1970). Mr Bill Gazaway the legendary tech director of NASCAR was our guide and we went thru the inspection room and somebody made a dumb comment about the body templates hanging on the wall, something to the effect of "is that what you use to catch the cheaters?"

Mr Gazaway took umbrage at the comment and his words stuck with me to this day..

He said, "boys", (we were just 20 year old kids and he was over 70 at the time) "let me explain something to you. Every team is just trying to get competitive. Let me give you an example. If I decided to have a wheelbarrow race for the length of the pits, and the rules were that you had to have one of your team members in the wheelbarrow, and one of your team members carrying the wheelbarrow, and you gave the same wheelbarrows to each of the teams here, the same teams that win every week would win the wheelbarrow race. The reason for that is that these are the teams that want to win. These teams put in the effort required to win. The winning team would find a big strong runner to carry the back of he wheelbarrow. They would find the smallest lightest guy they could to sit in the wheelbarrow. They would take the wheel apart and lube the bushings for the lowest drag, and they would test and find the best place for the guy to sit in the wheelbarrow that made it the easiest to carry and run fast. In short, they would do everything that they could to maximize their speed because that's what it takes to win, and they are the teams that are dedicated to winning. They will do everything they can, within the rules we have, to win. Other teams don't put in that effort, and they don't win very often."

His comments stuck with me and I've seen it in all forms of racing, from cars, to boats, to airplanes, to go-karts, to iron man competition. Folks that get it figured out will be faster, because they do the engineering, testing, development, and apply what they learned to make their setup faster, and they win. Doesn't matter what the sport is, the folks that want it badly enough to do EVERYTHING they can to win will win.

Kneel down boat racing is a pretty arcane sport, it's been around with minimal changes for long time. The folks who win have the formula figured out and it's going to take a lot of learning to be competitive, let alone win in this sport. Being able to buy a competitive motor is a good thing, but that's just like the team that got a big guy to carry the wheelbarrow, it's only one part of the puzzle, and it isn't going to get you to the front of the pack, you need to expect to do all the other things (prop, hull, driver technique) if you want to get there. And remember, as raceright noted above, the folks who have it figured out already will buy the same motor and be fast right out of the box.