latest on PRO radio rule

[Dan M]

To Sam's point, there are rules that can and should be enforced for improper driving. If turn judges would start enforcing the existing rules and DQ-ing drivers that break those rules, there would be no issues at all with having radio's in all boats. Young drivers could benefit by being "coached" thru a race. Being able to tell a young/new driver that there is a boat "coming up on the outside, hold your lane" could alert an unaware driver. There are many helpful communications that have been mentioned before about accidents, et al. I personally have radios that were purchased many years ago for large group snowmobiling trips. With 10-15 riders on a trail, you can get reallly spread out. If something happens , and it has, the group can at least communicate and stay together. Safety can be the primary use for radios in our sport. If drivers and crews abuse their communications and drivers drive improperly, they can be punnished with the current rules.

My $.02

Dan

[Geezeracer]

OK...I think I'll toss a nickel in at this point. Mr. Van Steenwyk has essentially told us that he's not a player, yet he's made an awful lot of noise and has been stirring the category I play in despite that. This is starting to bother me.

On Radios:
I don't think they're neccessary. I can see where there might be a potential safety benefit, and I think David covered the subject nicely. I'd be more restrictive though, limiting drivers to a "recieve Only" mode and limiting transmission to a single person on the official's stand who would advise on flags and stalled/crashed boats only.

I'm 65 years old and pretty arthritic. That 350's pretty quick and I can't swivel around like I used to be able to in my "bullet-proof" period...If anybody could benefit from extra eyes and advice I'm pretty sure I'd be the guy, yet I don't feel any compelling need to have myself wired. I do just fine with mirrors, a small convex to the right and a big convex on the left (I'll attach an image). On the right, I only need to know something's there so I won't hit it. The left is different. People pop in now and then without a good overlap and maybe with a little more speed than allows them to hold a lane...I want to know about THOSE folks. Last season I had a couple exciting moments to my left. In one, a driver new to the class came in hot, but I saw and recognized him plenty early and saw I had room to the right to give him a safe lane. In the other there was a collision but only because there was a boat on my right. Still, I saw the other boat coming and saw the driver wasn't going to be able to maintain his lane, and was able to get out of the throttle to turn a certain torpedoing into a minor brush and hosing. I don't think a radio could have made the encounter any more fortunate. If anything, time lost through sorting the message and picking a reaction would likely have had the other boat in the cockpit with me.

Let me add another concern about radios that I haven't read about here. At the end of Nationals I saw a NASTY crash in 125. Leading up to the point where the driver stuffed it, I would swear that he was running the chutes head-down, popping up for a look just ahead of the entrance pin. It looked to me like he never saw the rollers that caught him, yet others saw and avoided them. I can't know for sure, but at the time I was guessing he might be acting the part of a biological RC servo. I can tell you that if that was the case...If ANYTHING like that is to become a part of radio racing we need to stop that right now.

Commission "Agendas":
Mr. Van Steenwyk, I think you need to knock this off. We elect our Commissioners to regulate our category and look out for our interests. If you have a beef with the Commission or the people we elect then run for a spot on the commission.

You might not like the idea that the Commission can adopt and enforce a safety rule without a vote, but without that emergency power we'd probably still be driving in T-shirts and cutoffs as we did in the '50s when I started out. Do you imagine we'd have kevlars or capsules now without the Commission having the authority to put forth ordered regulation?...No bloody way. And as distasteful as it may be to you to be "Ordered", or to have to buy cut suits or add a capsule, those mandatory safety improvements make the difference in whether we can race or just remember when we used to race. Kill and maim enough folks and government usually responds by shutting you down.

And finally, despite all your poisonous hollering about our Commission and it's "agenda", I note that when you couldn't get your way you were very quick to increase the turmoil with an appeal to, and decision from a person who sits in judgement of us all yet was never elected to that position. So tell me Bud, when you can't get YOUR agenda past people we've elected to guide our Category, what makes your appeal to a non-elected judge righteous?

John

[Tim Brinkman]

Hey Geezer

I could see in front of me just fine. I did have high kevlar sides and a neck restraint on for my own safety protection. My vision was limited behind me so I did use radios. Sorry for taking some initiative and going beyond what is required. In case you didn't notice I was in a good battle for the lead trying to win a nationals. When I came out of the corner I saw the slower boat ahead but thought he was just loaded (not off plane). My spotter(not my driving instructer) said Jones was coming up the inside, and suddenly I'm swimming in my own blood. I'm sure you could ask the drivers I've run against that I was a heads up driver and have won plenty with and without a radio. People like you and some other "decision makers" help me get over the fact that I'm done with the PRO division.

Anything safety related I am all for. Anybody that thinks one person could talk to all drivers by radio is just ignorant. One person looking out for 12 is worse than no radio. Each person should be able to have their own extra set of eyes to let them know what my be around them. Have everyone in one area and monitor it. I would not have cared if someone from another team was on my radio keeping me aware of problems on the corse.

Have a nice day,
Tim Brinkman

PS - Ed Thirilby Sr. was Mr. Anti-radio on the commission, but as soon as the appeal was overturned Brandon had a radio in his boat. Can you honestly tell me that this wasn't political?

[David Weaver]

[QUOTE=Tim Brinkman]
Anything safety related I am all for. Anybody that thinks one person could talk to all drivers by radio is just ignorant. One person looking out for 12 is worse than no radio.

I would assume that with direct feedback from the turn boats, safety boats and judges stand that there would more than one set of eyes on the race course. But maybe that is my ignorance interfering with clear thought. I am not clear thinking enough to know the difference. Certainly using a corral for individual radio persons would be a natural extension/improvement, but again I have difficulty with this as I am a low IQ clod.

Personally, I am not impassioned enough about this subject one way or the other to let it be the determining factor in whether I race or not. I have some concerns about the decision making process by the commission, but I know I am not informed enough to "call them out". I know I am tired of all the childish behaviour that this subject (and others) seems draw forth on the discussion boards.

Just my opinion, your's is just as valid.

[thirlbym-14]

PS - Ed Thirilby Sr. was Mr. Anti-radio on the commission, but as soon as the appeal was overturned Brandon had a radio in his boat. Can you honestly tell me that this wasn't political?

Brother Tim, the radios I had in my boat didn't even work, I did it for two heats, and if you would have seen who the person on the other end of the radios was, you would have know it was a joke (my 13 year old brother, who has never been in a boat). My Uncle Mike and myself did it just to piss people like yourself and others off that are all for radios, because everyone new how "Anti-Radio" my grandpa is. And I guess it worked!

Brandon Thirlby

PS- I think Mr. Weaver has had many great ideas in the past, and I too am for your newest idea on radios.

[BURNINVERNON]

radios---voluntary only

Some Drivers Drive With Their Head Straight Ahead Seldom Looking Around ...many Years Ago I Forced Myself To Make It A Habit To Always Look To My Left Before Entering A Turn And Usually To My Right Also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Also Like To Keep Track Of Where The New Drivers Are On The Course --hopefully Behind Me --here In N-b-r-a We Usually Drive Respectively And Seldom Have Wrecks ...most Of The Time When A Wreck Happens Its Usually Due To A Driver Driveing Over His Head Or Beyond The Boats Ability To Handle Safely!!!!!granted Wrecks Do Happen And For Many Different Reasons But Radios Should Be Voluntary Not Required And I Agree That They Could Help Prevent Accidents ... Trying To Keep Entry Level Expence Dowm To A Min.. Is Also One Of Our Goals.........safe And Courtious Driveing Is Our Primary Goal For Now,,,,,,,,,, My .02 Cents Burnin Vernon

[raceright]

Radios

Radios Radios Radios, how about tv's

WHAT EVER

[Geezeracer]

Nice tantrum Tim. You know, I only pointed out the crash as an illustration that radios may not the the safety be-all/end-all that a few claim. And I thought I was fairly reasonable in describing the situation generically. You've sort of outed yourself by flying off the handle here don't you think?

Well, what's done is done, but your outburst does pose a question or two.

(1) I'm curious to know why you seem to accept limited vision aft, and use that to justify the use of a radio and spotter which obviously were of no help to you in the crash. I'd think that vision in all directions is a priority deal and I'd want to do my best to ensure against any blind spots as a matter of course. You appear to accept blocked vision, and seem to be using it as a pseudo-safety justification for packing a radio. If your spotter screwed a call up and you got run over would you still think blocked vision was OK? When a driver can't see what's going on around him or her the driver needs to fix that...Not just let it go or use it as an excuse to plant an advisor ashore.

(2) I note that your spotter was apparently good at telling you who was coming and where to watch out, but he totally missed those rollers, as you did yourself. Nobody else missed them. This is just an observation, but it appears that your spotter was more interested in watching out for who might be overtaking you and wasn't looking out for your safety very well...which, to hear the folks promoting radios, was the raison d'etre for incorporating the things. And doesn't the fact that neither you nor your spotter saw and avoided the rollers that everybody else avoided tell you something? It would lead me to believe that you and your spotter were likely focused on keeping you from being overtaken and not on the danger ahead. Sorry, but to me that supports the argument of the anti-radio side and not the drum beaters pushing radio's alleged safety.

I can understand a need for radios in a NASCAR race with something like 45 cars busting at close to 200 mph, but on a lake with a field of up to a dozen competitors unlikely to break 100 I can't see any reason at all for spotters and radios other than to help a driver make starts and let him know how to mess up an overtaking driver. The PRO overlap rule makes it pretty clear that you don't really want to dive inside unless you KNOW you've got the goods, and over my lifetime that's kept me safe from fools but there's not a radio made that would stop a fool. My opinion is that It's more likely that a radio would create one.

Additionally, at a NASCAR show spotters are pretty high up where they can actually see traffic and hazards. At a boat race spotters are at water level and sight lines are awful. I think it's just as likely that a spotter might guess an angle wrong and cause a collision as actually save a driver.

Your opinion that "anybody that thinks one person could talk to all drivers by radio is just ignorant" is really a display of ignorance on your part. I wasn't suggesting that one person talk individually to racers as you seem to think, I said I'd limit radio communication to a single person on the official's stand who would advise on flags and stalled/crashed boats only...To make this easy for you, that means that all drivers would be allowed to listen on an official frequency to an official who would tell them what flags were up, and would tell and remind racers where any hazards such as stalled boats were located. The concept really shouldn't be all that difficult for you to grasp.

This isn't an attack on you or your driving ability, but I am calling into question the compelling safety need for radios that brought a couple folks to appeal a safety decision of an elected commission to a judge who was appointed and NOT elected.

I think that for the most part our commission does a good job for us, and were I to view commission activities as unreasonable or damaging to the interests of the Category I have the options of presenting and arguing alternatives and/or of voting offenders out. I deeply resent an appeal that is decided by an appointed God, a remnant of the infamous Sea-Tac piracy by appointed officers and board members that brought forth things like the J-PRO kidnapping, Sea-Tac, the Offshore fiasco, Hydro-Poop Etc., that nearly hamstrung the organization. Does anybody here like the fact that his/her annual ballot is now a proxy instead of a direct vote? Is it OK that now APBA is kinda run by the court? I understand that Charlie's a history piece, but he was appointed by people no longer in power, and seems to be a permanent fixture...And, if you'll take a second to notice, he has re-written rules and policy rather than simply assessing a judgment. I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't like this at all, and I'm extremely disappointed that a couple selfish individuals brought the man to make judgement, write procedure and gut commission emergency safety powers, thus acknowledging and allowing dictatorial action in a member organization.

Perhaps some of you think that the Commission was being dictatorial in limiting radio use to capsule boats. I don't. I think that the commission fairly and rationally reviewed the radio issue and concluded that radios presented safety issues and left avenues open to cheat that couldn't fairly be countered. That doesn't mean that there aren't answers, but none have been presented, and I think that makes the commission's emergency measure to ban radios valid. Commissions need the power to decide on the basis of safety. Nothing prevents a commission from revisiting a matter to examine fresh evidence. There was no valid reason for this option to be stricken and every reason to keep it, and I defy any of the radio protagonists to defend the appeal and result. Shame on them.

John

[pro350hydro]

If your going to ban radio's in pro, then you might as well do it in mod as well. I have seen/heard guys stand on the dock yelling wack him, wack him, wack him, on the radio to a driver during a mod race.


Personally I don't use radios, and don't plan to. But, if you want to ban them, ban them all the way accross. If you want to regulate them, why not regulate them by scanner like NASCAR does.

I think all you guys are blowing this was out of proportion. However, several of you guys have good idea's above of which I would support.

If it's a safety issue then require radios in pro. If it's ablocking issue then start fining, or throwing out drivers for misuse of the radios.

Sattler

[epugh66]

I have seen/heard guys stand on the dock yelling wack him, wack him, wack him, on the radio to a driver during a mod race.

Are you suggesting using the required paddle as an defensive weapon

I'm sure glad that this is the only thing the PRO division has to discuss and not worry about engine availiabilty, minimum weights or height restrictions.

[pro350hydro]

I'm sure glad that this is the only thing the PRO division has to discuss and not worry about engine availiabilty, minimum weights or height restrictions.

No kidding huh, seems like there must be something else to discuss.

[HRTV]

Count down to closing this thread in 10-9-8-7-6-5............. who is with me ?

[bill van steenwyk]

my final reply

Whatever else is said about this rule, on or off this forum,it is important to remember the following:
No accident or incident was ever cited as a reason forthis "safety rule"
No safety committee was ever consulted before its passing by the PRO
Commission.
Both verbally and in writing by commission members it was stated that the
reason for its passage was "so as to eliminate af unfair advantage"
Also passage as a safety rule bypassed a vote of the membership.
Whatever you think or feel about the appeal process and "GOD'S" part in it, it is the appeal process availiable to us and the only one at this point,especially
when the commission was basicially forced by the outcry over the passage of
the rule to reconsider it, and even though the various safety committees
of APBA said it was a bad rule and should be recinded, it was not.

IT WASN'T ABOUT SAFETY THEN OR NOW, IT IS ABOUT POWER.

[Geezeracer]

Whatever you think or feel about the appeal process and "GOD'S" part in it, it is the appeal process availiable to us and the only one at this point,especially
when the commission was basicially forced by the outcry over the passage of
the rule to reconsider it, and even though the various safety committees
of APBA said it was a bad rule and should be recinded, it was not.

So are you saying that there aren't enough doors open to you that allow you to weasel around a ruling you don't personally like? Commissions have the option of making such a ruling, and your option is to work through the commission to answer concerns and resolve issues. What you chose instead was to be needlessly destructive.

My only issue regarding radios is that I don't see them as a NECESSARY safety item. I see them as just another toy that a few people want and that some have used in clearly unsafe ways. And I feel that the proponents have claimed "Safety" as an issue the same way that marketers advertise deodorant by shouting that if you don't use their product you'll stink and have no social life. The folks who are pushing the radio issue are using safety as a fear marketing tool to get their way.

No correlative evidence exists to support their argument while there seems to be abundant counter-evidence. Though my mirror fix is a little ugly, I can refine it, and because I can see everything I need to instantly and don't need to process an audio input into a response it works better than any radio at an investment of only six bucks.

My Main issue is that I felt the appeal was the wrong thing to do and it's opened a Pandora's Box destructive to our sport. Commissions are elected to govern our categories, and have powers to make emergency decisions that are necessary to regulate safety within the category. Members aren't prohibited from working out issue resolution with the commission, but we have to abide by a commission safety mandate until concerns can be addressed and resolved. The rule is there to protect us, not to stifle us.

When the rule was protested/appealed (which really only happened thanks to poisonous leftovers from the Plan-2000/SeaTac debacle) Charlie didn't limit his decision to whether or not radios were OK, he went further, re-writing long-established format to strip powers from commissions and allow other non-involved segments of APBA to stick an oar into PRO business and stir things. Does anybody feel good about that?

I'm sure there are some who thought Plan-2000/SeaTac was an OK deal, but really it was a disaster, and I think we should rid ourselves of every scrap of it, including allowing Charlie to act as an enthroned God to re-write rule and regulation to fit his NON-ELECTED views. The whole episode stunk. Never before had a class been lifted from a category and held for ransom (The Mercury 15). We had a Board member threatening to jerk licenses of members who opposed BoD actions. UL, which had been a part of APBA was jammed between a rock and a hard place by deals between our appointed President and the Unlimited Category lessee that forced UL to hand over all assets to Unlimiteds or survive separate from APBA. They survived on their own and may now be the best organized group in boat racing. And it appears now that they'll be running our most prestigious class, Unlimiteds, as a wildcat series...So please tell me, if anyone can, how much GOOD Plan-2000/SeaTac did for us.

And remember, that it was our Commission Chair, Steve Greaves who resigned from the BoD in protest following the J-PRO kidnapping episode, and led the Commission in recovering the stolen class and protecting us from further damage inflicted by the APBA Board. What I'm saying here is that by protesting the Commission's decision and allowing Charlie to open a can of worms to gut the Commission the perpetrators of the action have damaged all of us. Before rushing ahead to have their selfish victory they should have considered the bigger picture and the costs to all of us.

And I do agree that the issue was about power...It was a couple guys who didn't like a decision Mickey Mousing a way to shove their agenda through regardless. If you were so certain of member support Bill, why didn't you just ask Charlie to put it to a membership vote?

John

[Kevin Martin]

you know john you have some good points, i must hyowever point out that even out here i'd like to have a radio , for instance coming up on you guys at the starts, we're coming up on you so fast that sometimes we really don't know which way you guys are gonna go, it's mind racking at times, this would in my mind serve as a safety issue even in this case an extra set of eyes would really be appreciated at least by me. kevin