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[hagerl8m]

After racing 11 years i've noticed that the courses have gotten alot bigger and the race day has been exstended. I've heard that it was beacuse "we have more classes." But thats not the reason. I've raced Oshgosh and they run just as many classes as say for instance grass lake. and the racing day starts around noon and goes to like 5 at oshgosh but at grass lake the day starts that 10 or 11 and and has run as late as 6 or 7. that seems strange to me. The course lenghts are to blame. why do we insist on running these long courses. I think that long course idea comes from the idea of top speed should always win, what ever happened to being the best driver and winning. This cross over also happens at the nationals. these god awefull long courses that are over a mile. so maybe we should cut down the course sizes and shorten the day. so drivers have some off time.
chris 8m
or maybe just have a money chapionship on long courses and a driver championship on the short course

[MGallagher]

The "Bull Ring"....

Region 3 & 4 are your answer. You should come and race the 1/4 mile Bull Ring at Denton or the 3/4 mile river races at Lambertville and Williamsport. Region 2 has Taunton, Mass. where you can grab at refreshment at the shore side food stand when you come out of the first turn. And, Noorwood,NY with the bar in the pits, never been because it conflicts with the "Bull Ring" but have heard it is a tight course. I think you should scout these races out and see if it is worth it.

Matt Gallagher
58J

[pops67g]

Short course fun

I think I like to see my rig's top end as much as anybody and obviously long courses are good for that. However, if you are trying to attract and keep spectators through most of a typical race day. Long courses turn into boat parades, short courses have 3 or 4 guys fighting for the same patch of water heat after heat. Many times the overall comes down to time. In D hydro at Oshkosh we often run the 3 lap heat in about 60 to 65 seconds. Now that's intense. Top speeds in D are about 63 to 66 mph on that course.

[Tomtall]

Best Of Both

What I would like to see more of is the use of two length courses.One short course inside the longer course.Slower, smaller powered classes such as "J" and "AXS" could run the short course keeping our youth grouped together tighter for a more exciting race for them (less time taken to run them) and allow the fast classes to stretch their legs on the longer course.The big boys like speed and so do the spectators.No reason you also couldn't run long course on day one and short course on day two.This would make people have to work on their set-up from one day to the next.This of course wouldn't apply to record runs.

[Dave M]

I agree

I agree with shortening the courses, making it more of cubic inches than cubic dollars. I have had my most fun racing on medium courses. To short and it gets to rough to race.

Traditionally Mod always ran shorter courses than stock. I am not so certain that this is any longer true given the cross overs at most races.

The one negative thing I can see at a short course is the milling area. Most of our short courses mean no milling area other than on the course. It also means room for about 5 or 6 boats wide on the start. Change those two aspects and you have a winner in my book. I loved Alex KY for a Mod Nationals, made it a drivers course.

An example of the parade, in Dayton Ohio this last season (2004) in the FEH class on the larger course, I believe Richie Palmer had some sort of mechanical problem, and I went for the record. I had time to read the newspaper between corners.... and I can say the competition was strung out. I still failed way short of the record, but I also did not have as much fun just walking away like that. The shorter 3/4 mile track offers exciting stuff, and even the 1- mile course at Dayton can get exciting.

Just my 2 cents.

[ryan_4z]

I also agree that we need to start running shorter courses. Just cause we are racing on a big lake or a wide river, doesn't mean we need to use all that water. The reason we have to run such long nationals courses is because there is a rule about it. I believe it is something like 1500 ft run to the first turn. The idea there is to spread out a little bit before 12 boats get to the first turn. But really, does that ever happen.

Running shorter courses is more fun(I think), quicker, better for the spectators, and rewards good driving. Having two different size courses isn't a bad idea either. I know us A guys might want to run small tight courses, but those FE guys at almost 100 mph may be just happy where they are. But this is something that has to be determined every weekend by the race committees. Noone is being forced to run big courses. What we can all do is encourage our clubs and race committees to setup smaller courses.

[CSR4C]

I like courses that the shape of the body of water dictates what you can do with it. This type of course has character. It may be short, it may be narrow, be a triangle, may have a “dog leg” on the back stretch because of a point that sticks out. An example is the 2003 nationals course at Copperopolis, because of low water conditions the second turn was much narrower than the first. This made for some great racing. I don’t like courses that are on a large body of water, the buoys mark the course, and on the outside there is just a lot more water.
Darrell

[brian]

time and length

The A classes make stock races runable and also are the biggest time killers. How many times do you need to wait for that a driver to chance out the restictor plate because they are next up in the set after thier patrol boat change. or better yet never take patrol boat duty. You can run 6 classes with an A engine!! I don't want to stop anybody from racing but if you want to speed up the day put J, AXS and A all in the same set. then run the runabouts the next set and then this makes all A drivers availible to work. I would like to hear from the A drivers on this one.

I can race DMH and FEH and could race DMR and FER all with one engine and two boats, but I pick the two classes I want to run and only race two a weekend or maybee three if boats are needed to run. At Dayton my equipment ran FER, FEH, DMR and I still worked the patrol boat. PS I only drove FEH (gave a new driver a ride, and he won DMR!!)

I have been late for patrol Duty I know it happens and some times signed up with out knowing (Dean I love ya), but I try to work every race in the patrol boats.

On the shorter track for the A' and J's I say now way let them take there laps their 25-30 bucks is as good as mine. I will say I would like to see them run in the same set or even the same heat. It works ask Palmquest. Sorry John.

Longer sets and have drivers make choices!
A D-stock driver could race DSH, DSR, DMR, FER, FEh, and DMH with one motor and two boats and be competitive!!!!!

try that for a racing Value.

Brian

[Dr. Thunder]

Just curious ... but

why wouldn't you run the shorter courses for the classes with the fewest participants. Barge time is pretty much the same ... clock to start time is the same ... why penalize classes with larger participation from running on a longer course (more racing time) just because they go a little slower?

Faster classes tend to create more of a "parade" effect on longer courses because of the speed differences between one boat and another than do the smaller/slower classes with more participants ... better competition with the slower classes on a longer course!

[G Stillwill]

Hey Matt this is from my last race at Norwood years ago its tight alright and on small tight courses if somebody messes up ya got a piece of them. As far as the AXS classes they are only a couple miles an hour slower then the A's and are so close in speed that they stay bunched up on any size course. As far as putting the J's on a smaller course you will just bunch then up and some with very little experiance will end up in a wreck sooner or later. I was around when we used to run mile and two thirds courses with no height limit just out of control to be competeitive. I ran Lake Alfred this past Oct and was a measured mile and the way the course was set up the straight aways wernt any longer just the turns alot wider. To me the 3/4mile and the mile course is just about right.

[dholt]

Everybody's different

In my opinion, after 27 years, course sizes are definitely getting smaller overall.

The Nationals courses have seen the biggest changes. Wakefield used to be enormous. Way too big. Then in 1998, it became smaller. Since then, it's been smaller each time. 2002 was way small for a Nationals.

Look at your times for your races. Most courses turn out to be 3/4 mile at best. Maybe a couple are a mile...but that's rare. Who wants to drop $25 for a race that lasts 2 minutes???

Every race site has variables in terms of size. None are all "too big" or all "too small".

The race day is too long. But course size eliminates minutes. We need to eliminate HOURS. And that's done by reducing the number of classes run. That's the REAL problem.

Dana

[PopPop]

Course Size and # of classes

We used to run a short course for the Js at Lock Haven. I have no idea of what happened to that idea. Unless we have an accident free race and a ref that gets the next class on the water quickly we average no better than about 5 (+ or - a little) heats an hour. That is the simple truth. Give the spectators a show and stay as close to schedual as possible. I am I strong believer in the democratic process but some times I think this sport needs a dictator like the Frances of NASCAR.

[joelbrown]

i think they should have both kings of races short ones and long ones ! i race ash ,axsh,asr,axsr and it would be very difficult for me to pull restrictors change motors and what not between heats.

[jsilvestri]

I have discussed this very topic many times with friends and each of us like different sized courses. Personally, I like the 3/4 mile course with decent sized turns. The 1 mile course is nice too, but when it has larger turns. Anything over 1 mile and its to big for me. What I don't understand and never have understood, is we race on 3/4 mile -1 mile, roughly, sized race courses all year, then get to the nationals and the course is huge. How does that benefit anyone except those few who have that monster wheel, which takes a huge course to wind out. I have said and will continue to say that the size of the race course at the nationals should reflect the size of courses we consistantly race on throughout the year.

[Dave M]

The Short and Long Of it All

I believe AOF and NBRA hold a Short Course Nationals and a Long Course Nationals. I know AOF did. The Long Course nationals were the more traditional compared to APBA'a nationals. Now it seems like the short course nationals are always the Winter Nationals. So one can still choose which nationals to race on.

Now as Darrell has mentioned sometimes you should let the body of water determine your course. Look at Waterford Ontario, a small body of water that makes it a tri oval. We still get close to a mile I believe of race course. The FEH's can still get some very good speeds there, low 90's I think is what I recall when testing on that Friday there. Not bad for a short course.

Joe S, you nailed it, the Nationals course should reflect a very good average of the courses we run all season.