New APBA stock outboard class

[daveracerdsh]

New Class

It is taking a while for people to shift over to the APBA site, so I will keep making comments/taking ideas here...Darrell..you are dead on with the boat Idea...that is something we have discussed...and I agree with Don....very few restrictions on who can run in the beginning. My 3 cents worth...ok off to my real job...lol. David

[Matt Dagostino]

Montoya Report

BTW, last time I checked a 302 was about $2100 plus tax..........not $3000

Rick Montoya in his State Of The Yamato Report to us (SORC) in Chicago at the National Meeting in part reported his inventory was 43 in box Yamato 302's in his warehouse ready for shipping with an additional 300 plus engines on standby in Japan ready to be shipped when needed. The 302 is still currently produced in Japan and is the engine used in stadium racing for the forseeable future in Japan! Unit cost to racers is $2095 per engine not including shipping in the USA.

Montoya also stated factory 'race prep' for current APBA C Class competition was about $600 additionally if he did it. Tom Johnston also backed up that pricing.......

Matt
Region 4

[ronronx]

Thank you Todd

Thank you Todd.

And as an older racer with experience, This class just may bring me back out!
And if kept simple, can also bring in the new person as hoped for.
**So far, from what I have read, it is going in the direction of so many other well intentioned ideas and getting so complicated or complicated enough that many may not even try.

To be Honest if it was in a slower class it would still be as much FUN because I think side by side racing at ANY speed is Great!
**Possibly restricted?? Or would that be considered modification.

The bottom line is EASE of getting "in" for lots of people, not just cost!
**Amen. No one gets into this deal to save money. Budget, yes, but it will never be a money saver

Great Idea guys!!
**Absolutely

Leave the motor JUST AS IT CAME FROM Ric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
**Almost. The one possible upgrade I could see would be upgrading to a 9/16” prop shaft and I only say that for testing and practice purposes as the glut of props out there currently seem to be of this type. Also, one less item for future upgrades as the person, as hoped for, graduates to higher classes.

Props in a bag, you get in the morning of the race, number stamped into it!
**Like it.

Hull just weight rule
**Also like it. Too many good used boats out there for the budget conscious.

Just my not wanted .02$$
**Well worth it. Wanted or not:-)

Your Welcome in advance
Todd A.
**Thanks again Sir

Also, at least for the interim, it seems like there should be a way to allow some current CSH persons to run the class. Whether it be restrictions via more weight, a restrictor plate, lowering the prop height or a combination there should be and needs to be a way.

The bottom line is being competitive and feeling like you have a chance on a given weekend. We all want to be the guy who can go out there and leave everybody behind on shear talent. A class like this, with everyone on relatively equal footing, will not only show the talent but also be an excellent learning platform. Side by side racing is where it’s at. Not only from the participants point of view, but also as a spectator. Not to much better than seeing your racer run someone down and pass em.

Lets face it, a new class probably isn’t going to set the world on fire. If nothing else, hopefully this puts some or all of the “STOCK” back in to CSR/CSH. I just wish it would have been more in place before I started helping little bro put together a current CSH, but that is part of my dilemma with completely restricting current CSH from the class as I won’t be shelling out another $2095.00 for a stock 302 plus shipping, plus a practice prop, plus a spec boat, +++ (if you can’t tell, I am mostly here as the money part:-) and not complaining cause I am having fun with this)

Really the biggest problem so far has been limited information. Most of us only have been shown small parts of the puzzle and that isn’t the fault of anyone because as stated before, all the details have not been discussed or determined at this stage. The whole issue probably would have been better served if a basic outline had been presented at the beginning, probably with some short comments as to what has been discussed regarding the class and many of the difficulties could have been avoided. Not all mind you, there are always questions, but many. I think everyone was probably surprised that a new class went through APBA on the first try. Given the size of the organization, stuff like this is rarely considered or approved that quickly.

After all that, the simpler you can keep the better for everyone.

Ok, I’ve gone on so long that even I have forgot what I wrote, my apologies for the length. I am my father’s son and there’s more. Really:-)

Regards,
Ron
JAFO (for those of you old enough to remember the movie Blue Thunder)

[daveracerdsh]

Good info Ron

Thanx for the good info..We are working on a firm set of rules for class....like I have stated earlier there will be very few restrictions as to who can run.....I for sure want to encourage current drivers that are interested to participate....trust me, I am getting it from all sides as to what we should do/not do, which is a dang good thing. I have not looked at the number of "hits" this thread has got lately, but I do know it's a lot. Gonna go over to the APBA site and see how thread there is doing. Lates.

[Mrs blueskyracer]

Thanx for the good info..We are working on a firm set of rules for class....like I have stated earlier there will be very few restrictions as to who can run.....I for sure want to encourage current drivers that are interested to participate....trust me, I am getting it from all sides as to what we should do/not do, which is a dang good thing. I have not looked at the number of "hits" this thread has got lately, but I do know it's a lot. Gonna go over to the APBA site and see how thread there is doing. Lates.

At this time 4702 on HR and 41 on APBA. No "responses" on APBA. Just FYI

[Mike Beegle]

Ok guys... Here are my thoughts as a First Generation Boat Racer...
I started in Modified in 1999 although I have been around boat racing since the mid 80's thanks to Jim Robb and his Father... Thank You...
I bought my first rig in spring of 99' Bmod Hydro.. Tj boat for $900 great hemp boat.. Thanks Tj... Dudley Malone Power head and gear case $600.. Thanks Dudley.. Bud Parker down housing $300.00 R.I.P Thanks bud enjoyed the time in the shop with you.. Bob Goller Pipe and elbow and side plate $400.. Craig Dewald 4 blade $400 Thanks Craig... Used safety equipment Idk $ few hundred.. say $3000 or so total.. Later on a trailer from Tj for around $500.. I was competitive out of the box.. And i know this because Eric VanOver took my bmod to the AOF nationals and waxed the field by 3/4 of a lap one year. But I will never be the driver Eric is and Never will be.. I built 2 MJR BMH boats that are still competing in the IOA.

Later on I bought a C stock rig Pavlic boat with a 102 not so competitive.. Fun ride but a back marker. Only ran it a few races and sold the rig.. Was not worth the time and investment to run at the front. Hard to compete with people who have 3 generations of props and knowledge in the garage.

This new "spec" is a great idea.. The only problem I see is the investment a "new racer " has to make to race it...
The purpose of this is to build boat racing... Not to build stock outboard..

Stock outboard builds all category's of boat racing its just the bottom rung of the boat racing ladder, and needs to be for ALL of boat racing to be successful. The list of names that have became famous in my eyes and done great things in boat racing that started out in Stock is a long list.. Its the third generation or even fourth that are the brick and mortar of stock outboard.. Thank you for that...

You dont start playing high school football and say hey this is what i am going to do for the rest of my life.. No its College, NFL and that what drives you to keep playing..
When I got my first propeller in the mail and started reading and paying attention to what was exactly in it, I saw the Tunnel boats and I said thats what I want to do.. Now that i do that .. I want to play with inboards...

Now lets get back to the investment with the spec class. I think there should be a rental program for newbies to get there feet wet . I know i would go rent a rigged boat for a few hundred dollars for the weekend and race..
When i started racing OPC The Mercury Truck was there and the F1 guys could rent powerheads for a weekend. Not so much any more with Mercury ..

APBA or the Local clubs should have at least a couple of these "spec class"
rigs for Joe blow to be able to write a check and see if Boat racing is for them..And if it is for them they will make the investment and more than likely they have rug rats and you could gain a new j driver. which gains your second generation to keep the boat afloat for stock outboard and all of boat racing..

So for all who truly love this sport.. Lets succeed in Growing boat racing as a whole and please lets stop looking out for personal interests.

Mike Beegle

[Mrs blueskyracer]

Are all boats going to be the same hull design or is it just motors and props that will be the same?

Would be great, in my opinion, if a package could be put together and then financed. I am sure however financing would be hard to get since "losses" and damage do occur in boat racing.

[HRTV]

Ok guys... Here are my thoughts as a First Generation Boat Racer...
I started in Modified in 1999 although I have been around boat racing since the mid 80's thanks to Jim Robb and his Father... Thank You...
I bought my first rig in spring of 99' Bmod Hydro.. Tj boat for $900 great hemp boat.. Thanks Tj... Dudley Malone Power head and gear case $600.. Thanks Dudley.. Bud Parker down housing $300.00 R.I.P Thanks bud enjoyed the time in the shop with you.. Bob Goller Pipe and elbow and side plate $400.. Craig Dewald 4 blade $400 Thanks Craig... Used safety equipment Idk $ few hundred.. say $3000 or so total.. Later on a trailer from Tj for around $500.. I was competitive out of the box.. And i know this because Eric VanOver took my bmod to the AOF nationals and waxed the field by 3/4 of a lap one year. But I will never be the driver Eric is and Never will be.. I built 2 MJR BMH boats that are still competing in the IOA.

Later on I bought a C stock rig Pavlic boat with a 102 not so competitive.. Fun ride but a back marker. Only ran it a few races and sold the rig.. Was not worth the time and investment to run at the front. Hard to compete with people who have 3 generations of props and knowledge in the garage.

This new "spec" is a great idea.. The only problem I see is the investment a "new racer " has to make to race it...
The purpose of this is to build boat racing... Not to build stock outboard..

Stock outboard builds all category's of boat racing its just the bottom rung of the boat racing ladder, and needs to be for ALL of boat racing to be successful. The list of names that have became famous in my eyes and done great things in boat racing that started out in Stock is a long list.. Its the third generation or even fourth that are the brick and mortar of stock outboard.. Thank you for that...

You dont start playing high school football and say hey this is what i am going to do for the rest of my life.. No its College, NFL and that what drives you to keep playing..
When I got my first propeller in the mail and started reading and paying attention to what was exactly in it, I saw the Tunnel boats and I said thats what I want to do.. Now that i do that .. I want to play with inboards...

Now lets get back to the investment with the spec class. I think there should be a rental program for newbies to get there feet wet . I know i would go rent a rigged boat for a few hundred dollars for the weekend and race..
When i started racing OPC The Mercury Truck was there and the F1 guys could rent powerheads for a weekend. Not so much any more with Mercury ..

APBA or the Local clubs should have at least a couple of these "spec class"
rigs for Joe blow to be able to write a check and see if Boat racing is for them..And if it is for them they will make the investment and more than likely they have rug rats and you could gain a new j driver. which gains your second generation to keep the boat afloat for stock outboard and all of boat racing..

So for all who truly love this sport.. Lets succeed in Growing boat racing as a whole and please lets stop looking out for personal interests.

Mike Beegle

Spot on Mike,

Having a handful of these boats to simply travel across the country to the "big" races. nationals and races like Lock Haven etc. this is truly all that is needed. Trying to cultivate a brand new class is not the answer.

6 brand new 302's plus six new boats with all hardware, you can probably do this for well under $50,000. Send two complete rigs to the highest preforming regions where attends is highest. Regions could request that the boats be transferred within regions for upcoming large events.

* Every boat is for sale and replenished after the completion of the sale. The sale is carried out via credit card reader at the race site tied into the APBA banking system. Proceeds from the sale are shared between the APBA and the club that made the sale.

[bill van steenwyk]

the benefit of experience past.......

IF YOU TRULY WANT THIS CLASS TO LIVE UP TO THE REASON for approving it, the boats will have to be just as closely specified dimension/design wise as the motors and props. If you want further proof of this all you have to do is look at what has happened to every other "beginner" class in racing. Wgt (as much as I hate the idea of scales) will have to be specified also. Any thing else will just lead to the way every other class is now if you do not also limit the boat and driver experience. I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, IF YOU TRULY WANT A BEGINNERS CLASS, YOU CANNOT HAVE EXPERIENCED DRIVERS COMPETING AGAINST THE VERY PEOPLE YOU ARE TRYING TO ATTRACT. ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT PROHIBIT EXPERIENCED DRIVERS FROM COMPETING AGAINST ROOKIES IS NOT A BEGINNERS CLASS. IS JUST ANOTHER CLASS TO TAKE UP TIME AND BRING IN ENTRY FEES. IF THAT IS WHAT THE MAJORITY WANTS JUST RUN A COUPLE MORE HEATS OF WHAT IS ALREADY APPROVED AND CHARGE BY THE HEAT!!

The cream will always rise to the top, if the playing field is not truly level in ALL respects right from the very start, IT WILL NOT WORK FOR THE PURPOSE INTENDED, and this lesson has been learned in the past.

I remember that this is EXACTLY what happened to the Formula 350 class in PRO when the Model 80 was first approved to be raced in APBA in the US. Based on the experience then, only allowing beginners or those who had not competed for five years helped to build the class also. When we started to have the Stock and Mod crossovers with years of driving and setup experience, and no limitation on props, was the beginning of the end for the class. IT WAS NEVER AS SUCCESSFUL FROM THAT TIME ON, but it was VERY successful in training and giving experience to drivers that then went on to other classes after the five year limitation. In other words we had a very clear reason for the class and for the most part stuck to that premise. It was only when we got away from that premise, that the wheels started to come off.

I am quite aware that everyone like to race all they can and get all the "bang for the buck" possible, but if you stray from the reason articulated for this class you will just end up with another class helping to take up your day and no real success for the reasons stated for it coming from the effort.

If you go to the trouble to have a beginners class, then make it clear BY THE RULES that is what it is, as you already have plenty of places to go after a set period of time with the same equipment and less restrictive rules. You have enough classes for those with experience, and to not have a limit on driving experience, BEFORE AND WHILE COMPETING, to get into the class will defeat the purpose of it. We also had a claiming rule, but I do not ever remember a motor being claimed. The fact we never had a problem ( and I don't remember a motor ever being claimed) is pretty good evidence claim rules work in a class designed for the purpose of this class being proposed.

If there is as much support by the Stock category and the BOD for the class and its premise, then there should be willingness to have a motor in reserve that can be furnished to the person whose motor is claimed until another can be obtained from the dealer, or the person who does the claiming has to give their's up along with the claiming fee. Best I remember the claiming fee back when the Model 80 was the list price plus the freight to get one in time for the next race. With all the motors in stock as described, motor shortage should not be a problem.

Anything else is just another C class.

I know what I am talking about whether anyone wants to listen or not. I was the chairman of the committee that wrote the rules and oversaw the class beginnings while on the PRO commission at the time the MOdel 80 was approved.. The experience with this type class is there, and should be used if you want a decent chance of being successful.

[bill van steenwyk]

The loophole that should be closed in a real "beginners" class

A clarification on the rule (or lack of same) that allowed MOD and Stock Drivers that came to run in our class designed for rookies or those who had not raced for five years.

The way this occurred was an oversight was made when the rules for the class were written, by only stating that "if you had not participated in the PRO Category for five years" you were eligible to compete. The intent of the rule was there to only allow rookies or those that had not competed previously for the five year period, but as Stock had not approved the motor at the time, and did not for awhile, no one thought to exclude EVERYONE that met the criteria of an experienced driver. Also when the first Stock and Mod drivers started running the class is was thought "OK, we will welcome them and perhaps they will get excited about PRO, and purchase equipment and we will gain members in the "real" PRO classes. False assumption on our part.

With some small exception, it never happened and only had the effect of keeping our rookie drivers off the podium where they competed against the more experienced folks from other Categories. As one of the big boosters of the class and one who helped write the rules and start the class, I had mixed emotions about the situation at the time, but hindsight being 20/20, If I had it to do over again the rule would read "no competition for a five year period in any sanctioned competition (within APBA) to be eligible to participate in the class".

Sometimes inclusion works against the purpose of something, and I firmly believe this was the case here, especially with the membership of the Stock category at the time versus the PRO's, and much less of a need for a beginners class for all the reason the PRO"S legalized the class, namely membership numbers, and speed of our slowest "starter" class at the time. It not only caused hard feeling from some of the parents of the younger participants who ran the class when their kid had to drive against older drivers who were National Champions and record holders in the Stock category, but discouraged some of the very drivers we were trying to encourage in a "learning" atmosphere. Some very hard feelings resulted which is never good as anyone who has been involved in "Little League" activities can probably testify to.

We did have some very good results that came from the class though, namely drivers such as Pete Nydahl, Mike and Eddie Thrilby, The Kurps brothers, Jim and Tommy Jr. Kirts, Tom Brinkman, Mike and TR Krier, Sean Harrison, Sean McKean, and many, many others, and my apologies to the ones I have missed.

It would seem to me from reading the posts so far about this class that many are enthused about it and willing to work hard to make it successful. IMHO opinion those efforts are worthwhile, but only in a framework that really accomplishes what the purpose of the class is, and the rule making that confirms it.

Anything else would seem to be lip service to just another class to generate entry fees.

[jeff55v]

How's about you have all the engines that have been molested race in Mod? Then have ONLY "factory sealed" engines eligible for Stock Outboard? Seems to me that's the only way to get back to Stock Outboard's original intent.

[G Stillwill]

funny the ax classes took off in leaps and bounds with no age requirement or experiance requirement. Just saying.

[form-e one]

as i remember this was tryed when yamato 80 came out many moons ago,, as i was running itthen,,, seemed it worked for a couple seasons then went by the wayside cause of people always changing the rules,,,,,,, i think goodintention,,, but all we need is another class ugg,, ifthe rules where tightened up on the 302,,,ie specs,,,, we wouldnt be doing this,,,, same prob forthe last 30 years,,, to loose on the specs,,,and this comeing from a moder,,,

[Shep]

It is taking a while for people to shift over to the APBA site, so I will keep making comments/taking ideas here...Darrell..you are dead on with the boat Idea...that is something we have discussed...and I agree with Don....very few restrictions on who can run in the beginning. My 3 cents worth...ok off to my real job...lol. David

I know you trying to give everyone their fair shake at this. If they are really interest they will follow on the thread you started on APBA . The Paying membership will support it.

[ricochet112]

as i remember this was tryed when yamato 80 came out many moons ago,, as i was running itthen,,, seemed it worked for a couple seasons then went by the wayside cause of people always changing the rules,,,,,,, i think goodintention,,, but all we need is another class ugg,, ifthe rules where tightened up on the 302,,,ie specs,,,, we wouldnt be doing this,,,, same prob forthe last 30 years,,, to loose on the specs,,,and this comeing from a moder,,,

Novice 350, correct?

Pro cat (or stock)?

5 year limit of participation?