850 rule changes???

[blueskyracer]

very nice Mike..There should be no grey area..Everyone should be on the same page including INSPECTORS

[modifiedoutboard]

yes

Trust me, I know this as I already have most of the parts to build a few. Only reason I quit the project was because several inspectors said that they consider it illegal and if one of these types of motors shows up at thier race, it will be dq'ed.

Several attempts have been made by myself and others to contact the mod commission but no one could ever give a straight answer from anyone on the subject. This is why I abandoned my 850 project, and now it just sits on the shelf. If I'm going to drive across the US to go to the nationals, I want to be as competitive as the next guy. If I get beat straight up, I'm fine with that as I'll learn from it and come back stronger the next year. But if I placed 4th behind 3 modified front case motors, I would feel like I brought a knife to a gun fight. On the other hand If I showed up with a modified front case motor, won the race, but didn't pass tech how fun is that. I've never had a problem passing tech and never will. I don't race like tha
The ly reason why I stated the $2k price tag was because that is what Tim was selling them for (at least when I talked to him a couple years ago). So, for the guy that just want's to write a check $2k is pricey for something that maybe or may not be legal. A racer would be better off spending $2k on props that they know are legal.

In my opinion, the mod category is exactly that. Modified "stock" motors, which should mean stock crankcase. If you want to run a true bore and stroke only class, step up and buy a barrel of methanol and join the Pro ranks where you can built almost whatever you want.

Bottom line is, the MOD Commission needs to figure out the rule book themselves and decide which way the rule falls. Then clarify it in the rule book and make sure the inspectors are all on the same page so that there is no gray area on wether or not this is legal or illegal.

I would like to see each engine addressed individually .
Maybe it would help. I sold 3 sets of mod50 pistons/rods because of the uncertainty. Will do another 45 , using SPECIAL MACHINIG POWERS.

[Tim Kurcz]

Trust me, I know this as I already have most of the parts to build a few. Only reason I quit the project was because several inspectors said that they consider it illegal and if one of these types of motors shows up at thier race, it will be dq'ed.

Several attempts have been made by myself and others to contact the mod commission but no one could ever give a straight answer from anyone on the subject. This is why I abandoned my 850 project, and now it just sits on the shelf. If I'm going to drive across the US to go to the nationals, I want to be as competitive as the next guy. If I get beat straight up, I'm fine with that as I'll learn from it and come back stronger the next year. But if I placed 4th behind 3 modified front case motors, I would feel like I brought a knife to a gun fight. On the other hand If I showed up with a modified front case motor, won the race, but didn't pass tech how fun is that. I've never had a problem passing tech and never will. I don't race like that.

The only reason why I stated the $2k price tag was because that is what Tim was selling them for (at least when I talked to him a couple years ago). So, for the guy that just want's to write a check $2k is pricey for something that maybe or may not be legal. A racer would be better off spending $2k on props that they know are legal.

In my opinion, the mod category is exactly that. Modified "stock" motors, which should mean stock crankcase. If you want to run a true bore and stroke only class, step up and buy a barrel of methanol and join the Pro ranks where you can built almost whatever you want.

Bottom line is, the MOD Commission needs to figure out the rule book themselves and decide which way the rule falls. Then clarify it in the rule book and make sure the inspectors are all on the same page so that there is no gray area on wether or not this is legal or illegal.

Just a few items:

1) Clearly the inspectors in your area don't understand the rules.

2) You and others need to read John Palmquists post again:


Not so fast is right!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The modification to the front case is not the big performance advantage that everyone believes it is. A couple of years back I had A 850 "front case" engine built by a very competent motor builder who has done a number of front case engines with proven success. It was put together with quality parts (long rods, perfect crank, mod 50 fly wheel,ect.) After a lot of time, effort, dyno time and a not so small check, it became a good back up to my very completive, lightly modified engine (std. rods, std.crank case, fishing flywheel, lightly touched up ports and mildly cut head.) I believe the reason why the people who are winning with these "front case" engines is due the fact that they are the ones spending the time trying to make their stuff as fast as possible by owning new boats and testing with a generous prop box.
The reason why I built a front case engine was after attending the 2010 national Mod commission meeting, the commission decided not to make these modifications illegal because a couple of the motors had already been built for the class and by potentially driving people out of the class was not a good way to grow it. I only built the "front case engine after the commission decided not to change the rules and I felt secure at the time that it would be legal for years to come. Now Cheney Street, myself, Jimmy Rob, Tim Kurcz (owner) and Jayson Hay (who has three of them) all have spent the time and money producing them. By Making them illega,l I do think that it may shrink the class (that is not the strongest class as it is.) If any thing, making the "front case" illeagal would only make me more competitive by slowing down or elimination some of my key compition. That is not the way I would like to win. If the proposal had been brought up before any one (let alone five people) had built these engines I think it would have been a good Idea. Now it its too late to do so.

3) The drivers campaigning my "Kestrel" modification weigh 142# and 155#. As John points out, the only difference between engines may be F=MA.

4) Jimmy Robb and Josh Kimball prove there's much more to getting around the course than power. You've gotta show up, start and finish legal, and place well to make high points. More power to them!

Well, another hour's been spent here instead of making chips. You guys have fun, gotta get back to the Bridgeport!

Tim

[Dave M]

Wow

One thing I want to point out, the NBRA and the APBA rules for the 850 and SE class will never be the same now. No modified front covers in NBRA. It is legal in APBA as Tim has proved time and time and time and time again. Inmy opinion only, it should have been DQ when it ran the first time and the situation would have solved itself. It goes way beyond intent.

I quit the class specifically because of all the BS gray areas Tim created, and Anthony. It was a simple, cheap fast class. Now it is class you have to pay a someone such as Tim or Anthony to make you a competitive engine. It is removing the backyard mechanics from the mix. That is too bad because Modified Outboard is a grass roots style of racing.

Here is a simple solution that perhaps an APBA member should propose at the National meeting to address these 2K front cover type builders. Create a new class within the modified category. Bore & Stroke, Gas and Oil anything goes. If you guys want it to be a Pro Gas class put your money where your mouth is and step up to the plate and lets see how this new class would grow the category. Leave the 850CC class alone. It is already out of hand. It should have been left as a tinkerers class and not what it has become.

Having this new class would appease these exotic engine builders desires, and finally put to rest all these arguments of front covers, long rods, short rods, larger carbs, more intake area, etc. Only question is does anyone have the nuts to do it ? Or do you want to ruin 850CC by making it all 44 CI Mercs ?

[Art K]

Nbra se

At NBRA races we do not allow 44s to run in SE nor do we allow the modified front cases. It is one of our most popular classes with large fields at all of our races last year. And it is growing each year. Several times this last season we had full fields. Seems to say something about the approach APBA Mod has taken.
Art K

[modifiedoutboard]

Do not forget about the YAMAHA , TOHATSU 42 CI

At NBRA races we do not allow 44s to run in SE nor do we allow the modified front cases. It is one of our most popular classes with large fields at all of our races last year. And it is growing each year. Several times this last season we had full fields. Seems to say something about the approach APBA Mod has taken.
Art K

One thing I want to point out, the NBRA and the APBA rules for the 850 and SE class will never be the same now. No modified front covers in NBRA. It is legal in APBA as Tim has proved time and time and time and time again. Inmy opinion only, it should have been DQ when it ran the first time and the situation would have solved itself. It goes way beyond intent.

I quit the class specifically because of all the BS gray areas Tim created, and Anthony. It was a simple, cheap fast class. Now it is class you have to pay a someone such as Tim or Anthony to make you a competitive engine. It is removing the backyard mechanics from the mix. That is too bad because Modified Outboard is a grass roots style of racing.

Here is a simple solution that perhaps an APBA member should propose at the National meeting to address these 2K front cover type builders. Create a new class within the modified category. Bore & Stroke, Gas and Oil anything goes. If you guys want it to be a Pro Gas class put your money where your mouth is and step up to the plate and lets see how this new class would grow the category. Leave the 850CC class alone. It is already out of hand. It should have been left as a tinkerers class and not what it has become.

Having this new class would appease these exotic engine builders desires, and finally put to rest all these arguments of front covers, long rods, short rods, larger carbs, more intake area, etc. Only question is does anyone have the nuts to do it ? Or do you want to ruin 850CC by making it all 44 CI Mercs ?

all I have ever said is allow smaller YAMAHA & TOHATSU 42 CI TRIPLES to
use the same size carbs and reed blocks as the 49 OMC.
The mod don't cost 2k to do. What mods are legal to the YAMAHA 42 TRIP in NBRA ? Porting? Swapping carbs? , people are doing it ........

never ADDED MATERIAL to a front half for APBA racing yet!

[pro350hydro]

Tim,

Just so you know, I don't have a beef with you or your product. I understand your emotional attachment to this rule as you have a lot of time, money and effort into this product which you are very proud of. And rightfully so. Nothing wrong with that. And quite frankly, I don't care if this front case is legal or not. Is what I do care about is that the mod commission, and inspectors (not just in my area) don't even understand the rule on how it is written. That is why most consider it a grey area that needs to be addressed.

I understand that you and John P are saying the front case mod is not that much of a performance gain, while others say its a huge improvement. If you and John P are correct then why the fight to make/keep this case legal? Just because several people spent money to buy/make a modified case doesn't change the fact that this is a grey area.

All of the current records (except the one you guys got last year) are using the standard crankcase. Those records can be beat with a stock crankcase. It is my opinion and I would like to think that racers would feel much better about breaking a record with like equipment, instead of something that is superior with roughly twice the reed cage volume area. It's like putting 2 carbs on a yamato 302 and feel good about beating everyone else that only has a single carb.

When APBA's Mod Commission and Inspectors figure this out, I'll consider finishing my 850 and coming out to play

All the best-

[pro350hydro]

I would like to see each engine addressed individually .
Maybe it would help. I sold 3 sets of mod50 pistons/rods because of the uncertainty. Will do another 45 , using SPECIAL MACHINIG POWERS.

Mod 50 pistons and rods are legal. the intake and carbs are not

[Tim Kurcz]

Rules are black and white

Mod 50 pistons and rods are legal. the intake and carbs are not

Hi Mike,

Actually there is no grey whatsoever regarding my Kestrel front end Mod. That I'm getting burned at the stake for being the first builder to fully exploit the rules is laughable - they have been unchanged for something like 18 years except for the most recent 1.250" carb venturi limit.

It is agreed that some inspectors and some of those responsible for the rule book don't always keep up. One example is the big fat uncorrected typo regarding the OMC 1-Bbl venturi: 1.250" ID +/- 0.150" - Really??? The tolerance was clearly meant to be +/- 0.015" when the rule was created, published, and never corrected.

So, how many racers are driving carbs with venturi's bigger than 1.265"? Everybody knows +/-0.150 is a typo, but the rule remains uncorrected. All that run "big carbs" may meet the letter but violate the intent of the rules.

My engine meets the letter and intent. How/why you ask? If the authors intended to limit breathing, there would be reed port size limitations stated, or at a minimum a callout for a production reed cage. Not so.

The problem with my engine, or any other newly applied engine technology, is the mere appearance of advantage whether it exists or not. This case is complicated by relative unfamiliarity with the inspection manual by racers and inspectors alike.

Remember, an inspectors job is to measure engines against a known set of standards; NOT to pass judgement regarding findings within the boundaries of the rulebook. If they don't understand the standards, it's time to re-take the test.

Sure enough, Rich broke the record with one of my specials: He had perfect condions, cut a great start, drove a great line with the right prop, and showed off some cast iron *&^'s. We all know there's more to racing than the engine. BTW: Rich was not first into turn #1.

In summary, it's about time all 850 drivers re-read the rules, build engines, and test, test, test.

Best to all,

Tim

PS: Don't forget the Mod-50 pressed sleeve block (with two-port exhaust) is also illegal in 850.