850 rule changes???

[modifiedoutboard]

bore and stroke

while I think you build some of the best motors I have ever seen and your knowledge is first rate, if you open up the rules, all you will do is put the guys with TONS of money and expert machining skills to the front..........the class will NOT grow, it will die......................the custom front half needs to be made illegal..............then, lets see the class start to revive itself...........

bore and stroke is for PRO......................

PS: I have an FEH awaiting.........

Bore and Stroke on a 49ci is way over the top and sounds like a mod 50
but making it a antique stock class doesn't sound fun.
Limiting a 42ci Yamaha to 1" carbs and 4 pedal reeds will never allow it to make power for 850/FE/SE.
The front mod can be done with basic power tools , does not require a machine shop and machining mojo powers, just some handy work.
As far as TONS of money , buy a dozen props, new boats and add it up, racing ain't cheap. Look at 45SST KILO 87mph , do you think they bought one prop
Stuck it on one boat and decided to go 87 mph one weekend because they were bored??? It took $$$$ and time.

boomer is in the barn for now.

[sasbenson]

FE rules

Regarding 850 tech rules the only thing that needs to be fixed is to define the reed cage as being OE and having six openings. For the last 25years or so that was the intended and accepted technical restriction along with having to use OE carbs. The other specific rule was not being able to add material to the cage or carburetors so as to increase their size. Other than bore and stoke and a gearcase dimension that was it, do what you want!
The purpose of the restriction was to not allow a Mod fifty style power head to compete with the other approved service motors such as a mk75, merc 650 ect. Both AOF and NBRA went along with this idea and I think all of the APBA owners except for a couple of people. The good thing about the restriction is that it makes a cheap and easy intake system and puts everyone on a pretty much equal basis which I think is a good thing for the class. I think if all three groups have the same spec and there is clarity to the rules so every one knows exactly where they stand the class will be improved. Changing a tech rule at this stage of game will make the class decline even more than it already has. FE in region 10, and 11 has all but disappeared and it sure as heck hasn’t been because creative engine builders didn’t have a free hand.

Steve Benson
Olympia WA

[Jeff Akers]

Regarding 850 tech rules the only thing that needs to be fixed is to define the reed cage as being OE and having six openings. For the last 25years or so that was the intended and accepted technical restriction along with having to use OE carbs. The other specific rule was not being able to add material to the cage or carburetors so as to increase their size. Other than bore and stoke and a gearcase dimension that was it, do what you want!
The purpose of the restriction was to not allow a Mod fifty style power head to compete with the other approved service motors such as a mk75, merc 650 ect. Both AOF and NBRA went along with this idea and I think all of the APBA owners except for a couple of people. The good thing about the restriction is that it makes a cheap and easy intake system and puts everyone on a pretty much equal basis which I think is a good thing for the class. I think if all three groups have the same spec and there is clarity to the rules so every one knows exactly where they stand the class will be improved. Changing a tech rule at this stage of game will make the class decline even more than it already has. FE in region 10, and 11 has all but disappeared and it sure as heck hasn’t been because creative engine builders didn’t have a free hand.

Steve Benson
Olympia WA

Agreed... and well said Steve.

[David_L6]

agreed... And well said steve.

+1...

[mercguy]

Bore and Stroke on a 49ci is way over the top and sounds like a mod 50
but making it a antique stock class doesn't sound fun.
Limiting a 42ci Yamaha to 1" carbs and 4 pedal reeds will never allow it to make power for 850/FE/SE.
The front mod can be done with basic power tools , does not require a machine shop and machining mojo powers, just some handy work.
As far as TONS of money , buy a dozen props, new boats and add it up, racing ain't cheap. Look at 45SST KILO 87mph , do you think they bought one prop
Stuck it on one boat and decided to go 87 mph one weekend because they were bored??? It took $$$$ and time.

boomer is in the barn for now.

don't preach to me "It took $$$$ and time.".....................you peek into my shop and you will see just that............this ain't about ME, its about the class as a whole...........

I was testing this morning, where were you?????????

[modifiedoutboard]

boomer in the barn

I was in the MACHINE Shop this am getting in touch with the DARK SIDE practing the EVIL ART of Machining .
My friend was in the shop making boats.

Wasn't directing at anyone specific yet so playing the "its best for the class" card is really unnessesary unless it makes YOU feel good.

front mods are not expensive , just cut sand and epoxy yourself.
front mods for 49ci is not needed to make power.
front mods for 42ci Yamaha & Tohatsu neccessary to correct minimal stock intake sys and make equivalent power for 850, FE, SE .

[Racers Edge]

Not so fast is right!!!

The modification to the front case is not the big performance advantage that everyone believes it is. A couple of years back I had A 850 "front case" engine built by a very competent motor builder who has done a number of front case engines with proven success. It was put together with quality parts (long rods, perfect crank, mod 50 fly wheel,ect.) After a lot of time, effort, dyno time and a not so small check, it became a good back up to my very completive, lightly modified engine (std. rods, std.crank case, fishing flywheel, lightly touched up ports and mildly cut head.) I believe the reason why the people who are winning with these "front case" engines is due the fact that they are the ones spending the time trying to make their stuff as fast as possible by owning new boats and testing with a generous prop box.
The reason why I built a front case engine was after attending the 2010 national Mod commission meeting, the commission decided not to make these modifications illegal because a couple of the motors had already been built for the class and by potentially driving people out of the class was not a good way to grow it. I only built the "front case engine after the commission decided not to change the rules and I felt secure at the time that it would be legal for years to come. Now Cheney Street, myself, Jimmy Rob, Tim Kurcz (owner) and Jayson Hay (who has three of them) all have spent the time and money producing them. By Making them illega,l I do think that it may shrink the class (that is not the strongest class as it is.) If any thing, making the "front case" illeagal would only make me more competitive by slowing down or elimination some of my key compition. That is not the way I would like to win. If the proposal had been brought up before any one (let alone five people) had built these engines I think it would have been a good Idea. Now it its too late to do so.

[Racers Edge]

Maybe some good Ideas to grow 850?

As I said before, I think it is not a good idea making current legal motors illegal. However I think that it would be a good idea that the rules for this class be gone over by intelligent, creative motor builders (people that understand motors much better than myself) to prevent the next generation of "front case" style thinking outside of the box to occur before someone has spent an absorbient amount of time and money on other improvements to this motor so we do not situation again in the future.
I do not think the cost of entry into this class is why this class has not grown in recent years. PROOF: In 2010, Garland Powell the defending National Champion was trying to sell his championship rig for only $5000 and no one was interested. I have NEVER seen a current National Champions rig available for so little in any class in kneel down racing in the last 15 years.

Possibly a stock motor option that would be reasonably competitive and reliable out of the box could add a couple of people to the class. (but I do not think that this will make people flock to 850). However the 56 ci. from what I have seen would not be a good option. I have been fortunate enough to have a chance to get my 850 motors on Mike Wieandt's (sp?) Dyno. I am confident that my motors are quite strong and not at a dramatic deficit in power and torque to anyones. Mike has built the most dominant and proven SST 60 (56 ci OMC) motors with more titles to his credit than anyone else in the history of the class. After seeing how my motors stacked up, my best 49.9 ci. produced and identical amount HP (within 1%) but it lacked a dramatic amount of torque when compared to this best SST 60 legal motor. If there was a way not to impede the HP but keep the torque at bay this may be a great option.

[mike ross]

John nice work and advice. Put it in writing and bring it to the National Meeting. Let the 850 drivers and teams vote on what they want. I agree changing it now that it has been legal seems counter productive. Mikey

[modifiedoutboard]

great points by all

I am afraid that the economy may be more of a factor,
anything that could be changed may not be enough to
reverse the decline.

[sam]

I am afraid that the economy may be more of a factor, anything that could be changed may not be enough to
reverse the decline.

I agree.


The most we could probably do is to bring 2 boats each and try to recruit more drivers from other classes to keep the class active

[pro350hydro]

You must have missed the part about Cheney setting kilo with a fairly stock 49.9...... Also, how was it in 2009 that Jimmy Robb won high points with a budget short rod motor?

Tim

C'mon now Tim, you know that I respect you and your work, but you can't exactly compare straight away and closed course records. We all know the big case front end has much more acceleration for closed course racing. At least thats what you told me when you were trying to sell me one.

Also, high point's don't mean anything in this situation. Didn't Josh Kimble win high points in 2010 using a stock front case? Didn't Josh Kimble also win the nationals in 2011 with a stock front case? I also heard there were only 2 true omc 850's at the nationals and the rest were merc step ups. Am i wrong? How is that for class strength?

I agree changing it now that it has been legal seems counter productive. Mikey

But is the modified front case really legal? Some inspectors consider it to be illegal. This is were the problem lies. Racers are sitting on the fence saying, I'm not going to spend 2grand on something that may very well be illegal, but on the other hand they are saying I'm not going to go to nationals now because all those modified front case motors will be there and that inspector considers them legal. And it doesn't make sense to spend 2grand on a modified front case which I can only run at a few races a year when certain inspectors are around.

[modifiedoutboard]

it dont cost 2k

C'mon now Tim, you know that I respect you and your work, but you can't exactly compare straight away and closed course records. We all know the big case front end has much more acceleration for closed course racing. At least thats what you told me when you were trying to sell me one.

Also, high point's don't mean anything in this situation. Didn't Josh Kimble win high points in 2010 using a stock front case? Didn't Josh Kimble also win the nationals in 2011 with a stock front case? I also heard there were only 2 true omc 850's at the nationals and the rest were merc step ups. Am i wrong? How is that for class strength?





But is the modified front case really legal? Some inspectors consider it to be illegal. This is were the problem lies. Racers are sitting on the fence saying, I'm not going to spend 2grand on something that may very well be illegal, but on the other hand they are saying I'm not going to go to nationals now because all those modified front case motors will be there and that inspector considers them legal. And it doesn't make sense to spend 2grand on a modified front case which I can only run at a few races a year when certain inspectors are around.

Doesn't cost 2K to do front mods.
Unless you want to see yourself in the shine.

[pro350hydro]

Doesn't cost 2K to do front mods.
Unless you want to see yourself in the shine.

Trust me, I know this as I already have most of the parts to build a few. Only reason I quit the project was because several inspectors said that they consider it illegal and if one of these types of motors shows up at thier race, it will be dq'ed.

Several attempts have been made by myself and others to contact the mod commission but no one could ever give a straight answer from anyone on the subject. This is why I abandoned my 850 project, and now it just sits on the shelf. If I'm going to drive across the US to go to the nationals, I want to be as competitive as the next guy. If I get beat straight up, I'm fine with that as I'll learn from it and come back stronger the next year. But if I placed 4th behind 3 modified front case motors, I would feel like I brought a knife to a gun fight. On the other hand If I showed up with a modified front case motor, won the race, but didn't pass tech how fun is that. I've never had a problem passing tech and never will. I don't race like that.

The only reason why I stated the $2k price tag was because that is what Tim was selling them for (at least when I talked to him a couple years ago). So, for the guy that just want's to write a check $2k is pricey for something that maybe or may not be legal. A racer would be better off spending $2k on props that they know are legal.

In my opinion, the mod category is exactly that. Modified "stock" motors, which should mean stock crankcase. If you want to run a true bore and stroke only class, step up and buy a barrel of methanol and join the Pro ranks where you can built almost whatever you want.

Bottom line is, the MOD Commission needs to figure out the rule book themselves and decide which way the rule falls. Then clarify it in the rule book and make sure the inspectors are all on the same page so that there is no gray area on wether or not this is legal or illegal.

[David_L6]

In my opinion, the mod category is exactly that. Modified "stock" motors, which should mean stock crankcase. If you want to run a true bore and stroke only class, step up and buy a barrel of methanol and join the Pro ranks where you can built almost whatever you want.

Hear, hear!!!

I agree completely.