How much are you willing to pay for a new composite boat?

[ram95]

Ya know Mike... I agree to a certain extent BUT.. I've run next to and been passed by some real heavy-weights (size-wise)... folks who've weighed in 45 to 65 pounds heavy. So raising the total-rig weight to me is just gonna cause hernias lifting boats out of the water.
However, for some of the smaller classes, like J, AX, A, B upping the weight (as has been done already somewhat) enabled people of 'normal' size to be competitive without building an expensive composite boat.

I'm afraid that making boats better able to handle rough water or wind calls for a whole different design boat, lengthwise, hull shape, etc... maybe those capsule boats with power trim are the answer HUH!?!?

Nope - KISS

[Dave M]

Wrong To An Extent

If you shorten up the courses, the lighter boats become even more desirable. Lets face it, acceleration grows the lighter you are, period. Top speeds will be somewhat constant for the heavy vs the light.

To the note of short courses, the USTS does this, and so does the NBRA. 3/4 mile track is about the average. They both have a couple longer courses available. This allows for better spectator viewing as most of the time it is more bunched up and exciting to a fan.

I also feel min weights should be in every class (Mod). And they should be adjust to the heavy side of average. This will allow larger people to compete in more classes using the composite technologies. This being said, balance in a boat is probably more important than how light it is......

[ram95]

How light can a composite FE be?

Agreeing with Dave M regarding the upper end of "normal" weight and to try to accomodate the heavier folks who want to have fun.. just how light can an FE boat be built (using FE for an example)? Add em up...

Empty composite boat all painted up: 72 lbs (??)

Steering system (hydraulic) with wheel: 13.8 lbs
Fin: .8 lbs
Fuel tank (full): 14.7lbs
Throttle system: 2.2 lbs
Kill switch, tach and wiring: .4 lbs
Drain plugs: .1 lbs
John-Rude triple: 148 lbs (??)
Kevlars & boots: 22lbs wet

All of this stuff comes to 274 pounds. I wonder what the "heavy-side" of normal weight is for the American Male boat racer species? Probably around 229 I'd guess.... no? Hey.. wait a minute that all adds up to 503 pounds (D hydro min weight is 480 and FE has no min wt).

But.. if the same 229 pounder wants to use a wooden boat (mine weighed 115 new no hardware) we'd need to up the D hydro weight from 480 to 546 to keep things even. That way I wouldnt need to spend 5 grand for a plastic boat. Oh yeah, and don't forget to slap the FE class with a 546 min wt too while we're at it. I'm gonna get murdered at the nat mtg for this.

[blueskyracer]

Having built a few boats but none out of composite I think a 72lb composite 13 foot long boat is a mighty big pipe dream foresure!!

You have a 115 lb FEH that is all wood?? That is amazing.

[ram95]

O'Connor D - 115lbs without hardware

Having built a few boats but none out of composite I think a 72lb composite 13 foot long boat is a mighty big pipe dream foresure!!

You have a 115 lb FEH that is all wood?? That is amazing.

no hardware Mike

[blueskyracer]

you said FEH but still amazing.. So now we are talking DSH? Time to move on for me

[David_L6]

I agree with having minimum weights and I think some minimu weights should be higher than they are now, but composite boats ain't even close to being just about weight. Not even CLOSE! You won't know unless someone tells you or you experience one for yourself.

****ed shame that Matt has decided to not build any more boats. I know that the boats he builds aren't cheap, but "How fa$t do you want to go"?
You guys that are still racing have lost a lot whether or not you know it.

I've had a lot of boats in my life. The 44 (APBA DMH) boat that Matt built for me is my favorite boat of all time. I've never run the FE/SE/850 boat that he built for me so I can't say, but it may be my favorite if I'd ever run it.

[Shep]

Don't get all wound up about trying to raise weight. There are added side effects with added weight like more inertia in a wreck increasing the possibility of injury. I know some one will say the boats will go slower countering the added weight. It won't be long and some one will figure it out and be going just as fast as before the increased in weight.

If someone wants a composite boat they will figure out how to pay for it. Don't make rules to make it happen.

[David_L6]

Don't get all wound up about trying to raise weight. There are added side effects with added weight like more inertia in a wreck increasing the possibility of injury. I know some one will say the boats will go slower countering the added weight. It won't be long and some one will figure it out and be going just as fast as before the increased in weight.

If someone wants a composite boat they will figure out how to pay for it. Don't make rules to make it happen.

All true. What would be best would be if the boats were larger to get the weight instead of just adding lead to a small boat. Larger boats could handle rougher water.

[Shep]

All true. What would be best would be if the boats were larger to get the weight instead of just adding lead to a small boat. Larger boats could handle rougher water.

Valid point. We all know that won't happen. My point is rule changes tend to have unintended consequences. Our boats seem to be pretty good right now why change the weight for a select few?

[ram95]

Rule changes without consensus

I wholeheartedly agree with Shep comment regarding 'rule changes and their unintended consequences. As a commissioner, I'm sure not going to vote for some rule which doesn't have the consensus of the affected members behind it.

That includes NOT upping the weights on the aforementioned classes, which I would also agree "seem to be pretty good right now" as is. Plus NBRA weights are about the same.

Geting back to the original subject.. Cost. We are fortunate in our sport to have a number of people who are in a good enough position in life that they can make boats, hardware, parts etc available at virtually 'cost'. They are to be admired and thanked often.

We also have extremely talented individuals who can perform the same services, but who are not in a position to give time away because they have families to raise, mortgages to pay, light & utility bills, and suppliers who want their money up front. How many racers pay immediately? Don't even go there.

So, when it comes to buying this stuff, if you can get what you want for a low price... go for it. But, as always, it's your choice. Until you walk in the shoes of the person making the product... don't try to tell them what to charge for it. After all, like it was said "how fast do YOU want to go"?

That's why I love this website. It gets peoples ideas out there in print so that they can be looked at.

Alex

[Composite Specialties]

Well Said....

We also have extremely talented individuals who can perform the same services, but who are not in a position to give time away because they have families to raise, mortgages to pay, light & utility bills, and suppliers who want their money up front. How many racers pay immediately? Don't even go there.

So, when it comes to buying this stuff, if you can get what you want for a low price... go for it. But, as always, it's your choice. Until you walk in the shoes of the person making the product... don't try to tell them what to charge for it. After all, like it was said "how fast do YOU want to go"

Well said.....

[ZUL8TR]

Race boat cost

This tread is a sad commentry on the decline of the sport. Gone are the days of reasonable cost of materials. What to do about it?

As a point of reference on labor cost I recall when I was racing in Region 5 in the 1970's I would visit Harry Pinner's boat building shop often to just talk boat racing and observe his work. His shop was right down the street from where I worked in West Palm Beach. He made well crafted boats and used good materials including epoxy and Ocume ply. I recall he said his labor rate for a hydro was about $8/hr, and he wasn't building boats every week. Convert to 2012 dollars 35 years later that is about $19/hr. at an average inflate rate. Not bad for the time if the work was steady. So he also made props to supplement. Based on the hourly rates stated in this tread things definatly appear to have gone backward to build a boat for a reasonable labor cost.

[Tom Cronk]

Cost

Well said Alex,I've only been stuck once by a boat racer on hardware.We
are all families in boat racing.Been in racing for over 50yrs and a hardware
dealer for 25+ yrs and I'm proud to be in boat racing.
Tom

[Scott Deware]

I would like to chime in a little about the comments related to increasing cost being the demise of our sport. My day to day business includes working with car racing teams (mostly NASCAR). I see what dads are paying for their kids to race at all levels of racing from karts to Sprint Cup (yes their are a couple of Dads paying for Sprint Cup rides). When it comes to the cost of racing nothing is pound for pound more cost effective than boat racing. And stocks are the most inexpensive. Take a good look, or go ask a couple of drivers/car owners from one of your local tracks what it costs them to race. Good local late model or pro-stock teams can easily spend inexcess of $50K per year. Double that if they are in a touring series. A kids 1/4 midget (age 5) is going to cost $10K + to just get started. Same with a WKA Karting. Bandolero or Ledgends cars even more. Even a street stock can cost $15K - $20K a year to run. Sprint cars or Modifieds try over $100K to $150K, and in the NASCAR K&N Series takes it $800K to $1M to race for a year. By the way, the starting age in the K&N series is 15 years old and the average age this year is about 20. These are kids. And SCCA road racing. Many drivers easily spend in excess of $100K per year. And don't be lost on many of these series having prize money or being "pro" series. I've done the budgets for these teams (and been a driver). When you look at the cost, most of these series are still glorified trophy dashes. Just remember that we do not need to buy a new propeller every time we go out to race (like tires), our motors are much less expensive and last longer, we don't need big crews and big expensive trailers, our tools and parts needs are limited. When we wreck we often can just dry the boat out and go again, not so with cars.

Fact is that although nothing is perfect I think we have it better than any other group of people out there that love the challenges of racing. Yes it has become more expensive. What has not? Yes money can buy speed. This has always been true and is true in every motorsport (I will still contend that over the long haul the better driver still comes out ahead). But from someone who has worked with people from F1 to the local dirt track, boat racers have it pretty good. So lets still work to "control" the cost of racing. But lets also stop blaming this as the be all, end all of boat racing.

In fact I say boat racers have have an asset that, as a whole, all the others have lost and if we can learn how to market it can go a long way to saving the sport - Boat racing is still a community.

I know this is a bit corney but it is a fact. Boat racers don't rely on visions of signing million dollar contracts to drive them. Dad's don't have visions of their kids becoming household names and doing energy drink commercials when they put them in their first J boat. Boat racers are not afraid to help out another racer. Boat racers love to go to boat races and race boats...period.

Maybe there is something a little old school about this. Maybe that is part of the reason that it is hard to attract new members. But it is the reason that we stick around. We just need to learn how to better communicate this to people outside of our "community." We need to learn, and then practice how to make people feel welcome. It is not just about saying that we are inclusive, we need to go out and invite people in. I have wandered away from my origional point so I will stop here. For those of you who know me, you know I love a good debate.

So I'm off to Milton NH with my 13 year old JH daughter and my 11 year old soon to be JH driver. I don't know if they will race until they are 60 or just until they are 16. But I do know that boat racing will contribute experiences and memories that will be part of person they will become.

Scott