How is it possible?

[fhafer]

How is it possible for a race to take place with fewer than 12 boats but be run as two separate races with two first place finishers and two fourth place finishers? Please look at JSH at Hampton, VA on 6 Aug, 2011.

If this is allowed to happen then we are cheating the honest racers.

My opinion.

Disappointed,
Fred Hafer

[fhafer]

Recommendation

It seems as though the Scorer's Handbook is merely a collection of recommendations on how APBA would like races conducted. The Scorer's Handbook is NOT regulatory and need not be followed; there is no real requirement to follow APBA governing documents. I will participate in future races accordingly.

APBA has not responded to my request for further explaination of the events that took place at the Hampton, VA. race in the JSH class.

[fhafer]

APBA's response to my initial inquiry:

"The results from Hampton came in as 2 different races for the same class on the same day, it couldn't be scored that way.
To be able to score it we put all the racers from both summary sheets together as one race and put them in order of their total points. There is 2~1st and 2~4ths because there was a tie on total points for those 2 positions. No times were taken so there was no way to break the tie.
Hope this answers your question, if not let me know and I will try again to answer it in another way."


Okay racers......find that method of scoring a race in the handbook.


If it wasn't so sad this would be funny.

Fred

[GarE-12]

3 races in 2 days

Was this supposed to be one of those "3 races in 2 days" races?

I think this has been done in the past and if so how is it not allowed:

.."The results from Hampton came in as 2 different races for the same class on the same day, it couldn't be scored that way."

[fhafer]

No, it was two races in one day with the ten drivers split up between the two races. It was NOT the same racers racing twice in the same day. The race entry forms for all the drivers should be looked at for motor type division(black vs white) amonst the groups.

Why didn't APBA question this instead of posting the results? This questions the intergrity of our sanctioning body as well as the scorers.

[ryan_4z]

Sounds pretty hoky to me Fred. I agree with you, what good are rules if we don't follow them?

[bill boyes]

What a minute. Are you saying that the event had 10 "J"'s and they ran two complete Races with 5 boats ea then combined the points of both races. I am not taking about heats here but 2 heats to make a race. I am confused. Please explain further. Thanks.

[ram95]

What y'all hav hear is a brakedown in cumunicashun...

Cool Hand Luke

[fhafer]

Here it is....

10 J's.
One race on Saturday with five drivers that consisted of two heats (not the same drivers as the second race)
Another race on Saturday with five drivers that consisted of two heats (not the same drivers as the first race)
two first place winners Saturday
two fourth place finishers Saturday
Clarksville boats (3?) were used by non-APBA kids.

Sunday was a repeat of Saturday with two fourth place finishers.

Full race points were awarded for all finishers:
800 points (400 each) for Saturday's first place finishers.
338 points (169 each) for Saturday's fourth place finishers.
338 points (169 each) for Sunday's fourth place finishers.

Hampton Cup regatta ran two separate races with ten kids split up between the two races. APBA kluged the two scorer's sheets to make the two races one while awarding full points for both the races each day.

I am asking APBA or any J class Rep to provide me a copy of this scoring method or correct this violation.

It's also my recommendation that APBA ask WHY the race was conducted in this manner and what method was used to determine who raced in which group. I would like to see who raced what equipment (from the race entry forms) and if motor manufacturer was used to determine groupings.


APBA's response to my initial inquiry:

"The results from Hampton came in as 2 different races for the same class on the same day, it couldn't be scored that way.
To be able to score it we put all the racers from both summary sheets together as one race and put them in order of their total points. There is 2~1st and 2~4ths because there was a tie on total points for those 2 positions. No times were taken so there was no way to break the tie.
Hope this answers your question, if not let me know and I will try again to answer it in another way."

[modhydro]

Possible scenario for the race

I wasn't there, and didn't contact the scorer or referee from that race. (my guess is that if that communication was made you would have already had the answers.)

I am willing to bet that there were more drivers than boats so they split up the field to get more kids on the water and give them a taste of boatracing in an effort to help grow the sport. I'm not saying that the end result was a scoring method that was correct, but I think that it was probably a noble attempt to get more kids involved, gone wrong.

I know that in years past, Kyle and I helped all we could at the inboard race at Celina Ohio to get as many kids out as we could with the inboard J program. We ran them all at once and one year I think had 7 on the water. Maybe Hampton's committe felt that 10 was just too many due to driver inexperience or water conditions.

Lets hope that it was an attemp at something good that was just not handled quite right on the technicallity side.

My recommedation is if it bothers you that much go straight to the source for your answers. I'll bet you will find angles that you hadn't thought of.

Steve Roskowski

[fhafer]

The way it's been run in the past is the APBA point kids run their heats. After that any APBA point kids that want to can lead the new drivers/Clarksville boats out for three laps of their own. The new drivers take turns sharing the Clarksville boats until everyone has chance to drive. Robin Shane was AWESOME at this!

The points heats/race is never combined with the Clarksville "try me" boats......until Hampton 2011. That's when they decided on a new way to incorporate the Clarksville boats which resulted in two first place finishers on Saturday and two fourth place finishers on both Saturday and Sunday. I'm convinced that motors were a deciding factor in how the racers were segregated.

When the Clarksville trailer isn't there and a new kid wants to try a boat I've pulled one out of my trailer and set one of my boats up for the kid to race. And if an APBA kids breaks his boat I pull one out of my trailer and loan it to him (even when he beats my kid driving MY BOAT! hee,hee). Or if a kid has a motor break I pull one of my motors out of my trailer and loan it to him to keep him racing. I've set up my boats to fill fields in ASR, AXSR, ASH, and AXSH at a few races. I'm here to help people race.

I've been counseled that in order to get to the bottom of this I need to file a formal complaint; I intend to do just that.

A governing body that doesn't enforce its own documented standards shouldn't be governing.

[sponsonhead]

Quantify?

.....I'm convinced that motors were a deciding factor in how the racers were segregated.

What is your evidence that supports this allegation?

R-19

[fhafer]

The photos my wife took as she was there. Now go pull the race entry forms and scorers sheets and verify if you doubt it.

[sam]

I am looking at post #1

and the sanction ... the sanction does not say 3 in 2, so it wasn't

http://www.apba-racing.com/internal/...p?EditID=11000


I do not know of any rules restricting or limiting the race committee as far as how the draws for each heat are done other than maximum number of boats allowed on the water. As far as I have ever read in the rules ... the race committee makes the rules (for heat selection) that day and has the authority to do as it pleases.

If someone knows otherwise, please point it out in the rule book so I will understand better.

[fhafer]

Hey, if APBA wants to sanction the "If ya ain't cheatin...ya ain't tryin'" mentality then I'm all for it. Just let everyone know. But don't tear a guys motor down to the crank bearings in the name of fairness and integrity....then run a three ring circus like the Hampton race and call it good.

To accept these race results absolutely destroys APBAs credibility towards fairness and leadership. My opinion.