Lake DePue PRO Nationals trivia challange

[bill van steenwyk]

Four cylinder Mercs were run at least a couple of years at DePue against the Speeditwins in the early 70's I think, or possible even late 60's. I ran a four cylinder Merc at DePue in that time frame for "Dirty" Ernie LaRose because he broke his thumb prior to the race and could not grip the throttle. There were two at least that year, Ernie's and the other belonging to Gerry Waldman. I finished second to Butch Leavendusky in the Hydro and ahead of all the other Speeditwins. Never been so bored in all my life waiting for four laps to be over with, and the steering cables almost beat a hole in my throttle arm because the motor vibrated so much. The individual steering cables could not be seen with the motor running, just a blur.

Steve Litzell stated they were run on Nitro. I do not remember this to be the case, although I did not mix the fuel or fill the tank, but I think Ernie or Bill Seebold Sr. would have mentioned this to me. Bill Sr. built the motor for Ernie. Gene East has already made the comment in another thread about Waldman that he never ran Nitro. Possibly that was just referring to Quincy Flatheads. One other reason I don't think Ernie's were set up for Nitro, is Bill Sr. put the wrong plugs in the motor (longer than normal reach by just a little) and the pistons ran so far up into the head with the engine, it popped on cranking and then never fired again, as the piston tops had flattened the electrodes together. I always heard that as with supercharging, Nitro use required lowering the compression ratio. That was on the five minute gun for the Runabout race and I was not that unhappy the motor did not start as I had not been in a Runabout for 20 years, had not had ANY testing, and did not think this was the place to make my first run at the starting line in that period with 11 other good running ones.

I do not remember Pete Hellsten's (2 cyl) until after the four cylinder models had "broken the ice" so to speak. It was shortly after this time frame that two divisions were made, one for the Mercs and the other for Speeditwins only. Perhaps Chris Hellesten or Kristi Ellison could give some more information regards the two cyl motor. Kristi I think, won a championship with one, also in that time frame (early to mid 80's)?

On BRF there is a lot of history of this time frame, and references to Div 1 and 11, and copies of some letters written to the PRO Commission of the time by Waldman and Leavendusky Sr, regards the merits (and lack of) running the two motors together. I am sure the search function on BRF could turn of more info for those interested.

It is too bad Henry Wagner is no longer with us. I am sure his comments regards the Mercs in C Service would be interesting even 40 some odd years later, if printable.

[racingfan1]

Jerry Waldman '71

In 1971 when Waldman won his 4 Nationals he is also listed as having won a C Service title which would make it 5 at one Nationals. Interestly enough , and I say this without knowing the man but have read many stories on him , that he himself disclaimed that 5th title because he was beaten in the combined results , it shows what a true gentleman he was. As I was only 7 at the time so I cant say I truely remember watching him race , but I wish he had been around longer.If everything I have read about him is true he might still be racing today!!!!!!

[John Schubert]

2 cyl merc "C: SErvice

Four cylinder Mercs were run at least a couple of years at DePue against the Speeditwins in the early 70's I think, or possible even late 60's. I ran a four cylinder Merc at DePue in that time frame for "Dirty" Ernie LaRose because he broke his thumb prior to the race and could not grip the throttle. There were two at least that year, Ernie's and the other belonging to Gerry Waldman. I finished second to Butch Leavendusky in the Hydro and ahead of all the other Speeditwins. Never been so bored in all my life waiting for four laps to be over with, and the steering cables almost beat a hole in my throttle arm because the motor vibrated so much. The individual steering cables could not be seen with the motor running, just a blur.

Steve Litzell stated they were run on Nitro. I do not remember this to be the case, although I did not mix the fuel or fill the tank, but I think Ernie or Bill Seebold Sr. would have mentioned this to me. Bill Sr. built the motor for Ernie. Gene East has already made the comment in another thread about Waldman that he never ran Nitro. Possibly that was just referring to Quincy Flatheads. One other reason I don't think Ernie's were set up for Nitro, is Bill Sr. put the wrong plugs in the motor (longer than normal reach by just a little) and the pistons ran so far up into the head with the engine, it popped on cranking and then never fired again, as the piston tops had flattened the electrodes together. I always heard that as with supercharging, Nitro use required lowering the compression ratio. That was on the five minute gun for the Runabout race and I was not that unhappy the motor did not start as I had not been in a Runabout for 20 years, had not had ANY testing, and did not think this was the place to make my first run at the starting line in that period with 11 other good running ones.

I do not remember Pete Hellsten's (2 cyl) until after the four cylinder models had "broken the ice" so to speak. It was shortly after this time frame that two divisions were made, one for the Mercs and the other for Speeditwins only. Perhaps Chris Hellesten or Kristi Ellison could give some more information regards the two cyl motor. Kristi I think, won a championship with one, also in that time frame (early to mid 70's)?

On BRF there is a lot of history of this time frame, and references to Div 1 and 11, and copies of some letters written to the PRO Commission of the time by Waldman and Leavendusky Sr, regards the merits (and lack of) running the two motors together. I am sure the search function on BRF could turn of more info for those interested.

It is too bad Henry Wagner is no longer with us. I am sure his comments regards the Mercs in C Service would be interesting even 40 some odd years later, if printable.

Bill is just about right on about the Hellsten "C: service. I got the powerhead parts for Pete. But there was another more prolific driver with a 2 cylinder & that was Hal Tolford from the west coast state of Washington. He might have won several championships as well. At one point prior to their being banded, the Merc 2 cylinder was a legal "C" service motor but were required to run the OMC club gearcase, alledgedly leveling the performance with that of the OMC's. When Waldman & Latta first showed up with the 4 cylinders, prior to separating the Mercs & OMC's, they ran the smaller Merc pleasure motor gear cases, a distinctive advantage over the OMC club gear case. Also, I don't recall Pete ever using nitro either, but can not rule out others. I did when I won "B" hydro in 1968 but only 10% & when testing did not see any performance increases.

[Rex Hall]

C service mercurys

I know for a fact that Larry Lattas 4 cylinder Merc was run on about 20% nitro and Jim Warren also ran nitro in his motor, I think it was a 2 cylinder, but am not possitive.

[Jeff Lytle]

Duke Johnson won CserR at Tracy, Quebec in 1982 Canadian Nationals with Red Taylers 2 Cyl. I'm glad we are running Evinrude and Johnson's today. Dad still has that motor & others.

We gave you a run for your money though!

[bill van steenwyk]

Rex:

I don't believe I said anything in my earlier post to indicate that ALL C Service Mercs ran on straight Methonal and did not use Nitro. My post was strictly in reference to Ernie LaRose's engine, which as I indicated I did not think was on Nitro for the reasons mentioned. I thought that was clear in my post. I also said I was not sure about Waldman but based on Gene East's previous comments in another thread regards Waldman's use of Nitro, he did not use it in his Flatheads. I have no knowledge about the Mercury Service motor he competed with, as I said.

I have been told, by folks that competed with them, that regards usage of Nitro in the two and four cylinder Mercs, the percentages used were 40% in the four cylinder and 20% in the two cylinder. Again, I have no personal knowledge of this as I never filled a fuel tank, but I have confidence in these persons truthfullness. I have a hard time believing that Larry used ONLY 20% in anything.

History is always colored by many things in a competitive environment, especially years later when memories fade, BUT the important thing is we have some history and we need more contributers to these type threads to preserve it.

Eileen always says she hopes, and thinks, we had a good time in the 70's. It is just difficult some times to remember it!

[Art K]

I had one of the first 4 cyl C ser Merc. Bill Seebold built it for us the first year it became legal It had Turner 2 ring pistons and a set of KA7A floatless carbs from Quincy. We used a set of Cencro Tones for exh.with the dividers cut out. No tuned exh. allowed. Had a stock 30 hp lower unit that we locked in reverse. That allowed us to use props that were used on the old 4-60s. Only props around at that time that would work. The lower unit was the real weakpoint. You had to drill a 1/4 shearpin hole thru that small splined shaft, and they would break after a short time. We bought a bunch of lower unit s and props during that period. The Speedi twin lower unit was not legal on the Merc at that time. We eventually converted it back to gas. After that it always started and usually finished. Was not fast enough to compete with the Speeditwins. We did get a few good finishes and several wins because it always started and usually finished. It did have a bad habit of starting backwards after we switched back to gas. We ran the timing so high that if you lifted it to start you had better be sure it was turning the right way. I am sure that it was made legal in the mid 60`s. But did not become competitive until the allowed the lower unit change in the early 70`s.
Art K

[bill van steenwyk]

Thanks Art...............

that is what I meant by more folks contributing to our history. I, for one, had forgotten that you ran C Service at one time. Someone should start a thread about ODA and the 70's when you ran combined programs like we did in Kansas City.

Seems like in the late 60's and early 70's between ODA and KC Speedboat Association we could have a really good combined Alky and Mod race with just those two clubs, and never have to drive over 250 miles. A lot of very good drivers got their start in this area, including both Bill Seebolds, Sr. and Jr., John Woods, etc, and a large number of Mod drivers that you knew much better than I, including the Lowery's, you and your son and many others, and last but not least, your roll in helping get NBRA off the ground and running. All of the "clamp on" type boat racing might be happy NBRA is around before all this thing with APBA plays out.

[Art K]

We wore out I-70 running to the KC races and over to Indy for the IOA races. And your right rarely did we travel over 250 Mi. KC & the ODA had some great drivers in that era.The Leavenduskys, Rex Hall, Walter Courtois,Emmet Homfeld, John Dortch, along with the ones you mentioned. And I am sure Iam missing others.
Art K