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  • Engine height

    Listen,
    I have been around racing my whole life and I have come across a few things that stick in my mind. One of them is engine height. Without any discrepancy, an inch and three eights, is an inch and three eights, is an inch and three eights. I don’t see any leeway for a discussion on the rule. Whether or not a speed advantage has or has not occurred in a special situation has no bearing on the rule, and hopefully never will. That is why the rule is so strict. If we decide to make special accommodations for special instances we will find ourselves in a racing community where the importance of a race for someone and last name means more than the rule itself. I wouldn’t be going out on a limb too far to say that if the rule was debatable we would have racers claiming that their engine was high after a heat because they got bumped or hit in the first turn. That sounds pretty harsh but I believe that we are on the cusp of this thinking already. When it comes to an inspector’s call to disqualify a driver, the decision MUST be on technical specifications ONLY. In a sense, the inspector should be inspecting the equipment like he or she had their back to the actual race the whole time. I think I relate to a lot of drivers in the sport when I state that I have been disqualified for a high engine due to loose things or stress on the engine while on the racecourse. When I was “pitched” the inspector couldn’t care less about how my engine became illegal, the only thing that mattered was that it was illegal. On the other end of the spectrum, an engine height that is too low due to shim stick or kick out bracket failure on the race course is not grounds for a re-run of the heat. Sounds pretty silly when the opposite of a too high engine is put into a scenario.

    We do all that we can to go fast and stay within the rules but sometimes we are just lucky, and sometimes we are just unlucky. When we are unlucky the rules and system seems to be unfair. I guess that’s racing in the APBA.
    Last edited by Hagerl 6M; 10-27-2004, 04:23 AM.
    There's nothing like rolling up a runabout!

  • #2
    Whats your beef?

    Which Hageral are you. Are you a commissioner, if you are did you get a copy of the appeal. Anyone that races knows that the height rule is very srtict. I'm not sure what point your trying to make, frustrated, angry, wanting to argue (that an appeal was made). It sounds like your responding to someones comment not starting a thread. Whats your beef?

    Mike Bartlett 112-R

    Comment


    • #3
      A little explanation

      I am an informed Hagerl. I stay pretty current on things within our sport. My posting was more of a rant to let people know what I think as well as give an opening for discussion on the most recent topic discussed in our governing body.

      What do you think my posting is? An attempt to be frustrated, angry, wanting to argue????
      There's nothing like rolling up a runabout!

      Comment


      • #4
        you runnin KPro?

        Unless I missed something about 18 years ago, I think an inch and three-eights, is 1-3/8", is an inch and 3/8s, is an inch and three-eights.

        Not an inch and three quarters.

        Comment


        • #5
          Mr. Hagerl if you are commenting about the appeal that I made I would be more than happy to explain to everyone why an appeal was made.

          Rules are rules, but sometimes there should be an exception. Maybe the rules should be looked at. Possibly changed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Please don't get confused

            J. Michael,
            I think you are a little confused on the origin of this post. I'm Jim Hagerl, not Don. I just stay very informed on what's going on. I feel for you. I even saw the picts of you finishing the race. It looked like you were rollin that boat up in the corners just to keep it afloat.

            Also, I had a brain hiccup on the original post regarding the actual hight where I said an inch and three quarters where I meant to say an inch and three eights. Oops! Long days teaching third graders makes you forget your name sometimes.
            There's nothing like rolling up a runabout!

            Comment


            • #7
              J Michael wasn't the only one confused - thank you for the clarification. I had to check around on the outcome of the appeal - the tone of your post seemed to indicate it was accepted. As we know, it wasn't. I'm glad that APBA has a process for appealing the interpretation of the rule, and that the Commission took the time to hear such an appeal. Now, if folks think an adjustment to the rule is necessary, there is also a process for that - and here we even have a forum to discuss it.

              I don't see any reason to criticize for the appeal being made - having been at the race in question I understand why. I also understand the ruling the Commission made. I think Jim makes some good points as to why the height rule should be interpreted the way it was, and perhaps we will see some posts about suggested changes.
              Mike Johnson

              World Headquarters
              sigpic
              Portland, Oregon
              Johnson Racing

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you!

                Mike,
                You hit the nail on the head. I never intended to confuse people on who started the post and I was not criticizing the appeal process. I simply had some thoughts rumbling around and need to let them be known.

                It's funny that people got confused about my user name. What's more funny is that I don't know what my father's user name is. Even so It can get confusing sometimes with so many family members in racing together.
                There's nothing like rolling up a runabout!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jim,
                  I wasn't harshin' on your post ( sorry about the poorly worded 4th sentence),I was just looking for clarification. I wasn't the only one that got a non happy vibe from your post though.

                  You seem very passionate about the height rule, are you for it or against it, I'm for it. Does this tie into the tuck under issue, are you for or against limiting the engine being kicked way under, I'm against it. Are you for or against limiting which rules can be appealed, I'm against it.

                  I think the issue here is how we inspect, not if the height rule is debatable. If it was a divisional or national race, inspection would occour after each heat. Being an inspector for 14 years I have always done inspection after the final heat (for regular region races only) as do most inspectors. If a boat doesn't finish the 2nd heat it usually doen't get inspected, especially if it crashes and gets towed in. But it does get points for the first heat, so do we then inspect boats that come towed in upside down, and try to inforce the height rule then? My opinion would be, make inspection mandatory after each heat.

                  Because of J. Michaels luck and determination he finished the heat, but lost the race. If his boat would of sank (which it should have) he would have received points for his first heat. This is a case of being lucky, that had unlucky results.

                  PS, It's snowing in the Northwest, just saw Warren Millers "Impact" and jones'n hard to hit the slopes. Timberline opened last weekend on a foot of base, they now have 23". Pray for snow!

                  Mike

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Possible solution

                    How's this for a possible solution around the situation we just had with the J. Michael incident.

                    At local/non championship races...make the 1st place boat from the first heat report to inspection. The chance of being inspected after the first heat will prevent anyone from cheating. No one would intentionally run high, underweight or illegal fuel if they knew inspection was looming.

                    Then, inspect the top 3 after the second heat as usual.

                    Any DQ's for height, weight or fuel would only affect the heat for which you were inspected...whether it be 1st heat or 2nd heat.

                    Seems really silly to toss a guy for a heat for which he wasn't inspected.

                    Isn't America the land of "innocent until proven guilty?"


                    Dana



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      J. Michael Incident?

                      For those of us that were not there ... have not heard ... and don't know what the rest of you are talking about ... can someone fill us in on the details of the J. Michael incident!!!.

                      I know that he was involved in a "boat damaging" incident and subsequent unbelievable effort to just finish at Shadow Cliff but what was the result of the post race inspection and subsequent appeal?
                      Untethered from reality!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        here's my version...

                        Neal, what happened is after winning the first heat, J Michael dumped in turn 3. The boat was upright and still running with him hanging on. The boat's right afterplane basically collasped, but he got back on and finished. The tie down rope was the only thing holding the right side of the transom on. At inspection, when the height was measured, the motor was high - it was also loose and tilted. Pushed back on the transom, it was legal, but the rule interpretation was a DQ that applied to both heats. This interpretation was appealed, and the Stock Commission has upheld the inspector's call.

                        My understanding of the impetus for the appeal is that it wasn't about the engine height ruling after the second heat per se, but the application of the overheight DQ to the first heat, the reasoning being that the height was legal after the motor was pushed back down, therefore the accident that occurred in the second heat caused the overheight DQ, and so the DQ shouldn't apply to the first heat points.

                        I'm sure if I have facts wrong, someone will correct me. Not making a judgement either way.
                        Mike Johnson

                        World Headquarters
                        sigpic
                        Portland, Oregon
                        Johnson Racing

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hagerl 6M
                          J. Michael,
                          *(** I'm Jim Hagerl, not Don. I just stay very informed on what's going on. ***.
                          Don't let Jim fool you: Both he and John Kerry think the US Military lost 380 tons of explosives in Iraq. As Bugs Bunny says: What a marooon!

                          Add: Oh, yeah, let me ask this of the guy that's "very informed": What's the height restriction in A Mod Runabout? I'm sorry, Jim, but you asked for that! Ed.
                          Last edited by 14-H; 10-28-2004, 11:25 AM.
                          14-H

                          "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            we don't need to change the rules

                            I don't have the rule book in front of me, put to paraphrase, it says something to the effect that refusing to report for inspection results in a DQ. I suspect we have been doing it wrong all these years, but the way I read it, if a boat doesn't show up at inspection for WHATEVER reason, he is DQ'd and receives no points for the race. We should probably look at the rule book we already have before we decide to re-write it. Flame suite on, Tony
                            Moby Grape Racing
                            "Fast Boats Driven Hard"



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Engine Height

                              I agree with Dana Holt.

                              I have not been able to find the rule that supports J. Michael's disqualification for his first heat?

                              Maybe someone can help me understand this one?

                              General Racing Rule, pg. RR-8 Rule 20, 4. States "If inspection reveals that a boat or motor is illegal, the entry shall be disqualified for each heat in which it raced...
                              It does not say shall be disqualified for all heats in which it raced.

                              Read Rule 9, notice the note.
                              Then go to General Racing Rule 18, 4. pg RR-8
                              The Referee has the power to decide whether or not such boat should be disqualified.

                              It is all in the interpretation of the rule.

                              Sorry, J. Michael, I could not hold back any longer.
                              Everything that I have heard from everyone that was at this race, you were the true winner of the day. You did everything right. Your one hell of a driver.

                              Ken Kiaser, I plan on building new boats this winter, I think we owe you one.
                              At least half of one. Get well soon.

                              Jeff Kelly Sr.

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