New C stock class proposal

[raceright]

BOB, I only went to 15 races last year, NEVER did I see a J driver not get off the beach. Please let me know who these Kids are so My son and I can offer them help with the Complex ( ??? ) set up . How come region 2 only has one race? if I lived in a huge state like Ny and wanted to get into racing I would be shocked that there are not more races. Shawn Cavanaugh

Hey Shawn

Region 2
Yes it is a large state, for one reason or another us from LI just never seem to race much in region 2, but for the most part we race in region 1 I believe you know that---the guys who control the race sites off LI for one reason or another (and I wish I could help) have not put together many races as of late.. Could have something to do with finance or the contacts have changed so I better stop guessing as I probably would be wrong.

So now that I have defended Region 2 that still does not help class reductionlololo

Pat Wright

[Tim Kurcz]

The obvious

Hey Dave,

How is it Paramutuel racers can drive a stock Yamato, yet at a minimum APBA racers must blueprint a gearcase and change a propshaft?

God bless Ron Hill for offering up 10 free props and to make identical props for only $100 each. But how can you expect manufacturers to sell equipment at zero profit and stay in business?

Tim

[G Stillwill]

Tim one reason is they run the prop way deeper then we do here with a different type of prop.

[Fast Jack]

Pat you deserve a reply

Pat , You are one of the people that gets things done. You put a ton of work into the Hartford Race and I was there to support you. You have come to Standish to support this Region 1 Race . I am Sick and tired ot the winers that want to make rule changes to SOLVE THE PROBLEMS IN RACING .. To them I have said look at what is wrong with your races and do something to fix it .. Region 1 is a great place to race. I dont see the problems that the winers are crying about. We run the popular classes, our programs have few delays and every one of the SSOA races benifits a charity. The Hosts want MORE races. We have some special feature that makes each race unique . Friday testing . Marathons , Beach starts, Local TV coverage, Dinners, all these things add up to great racing. So to the winers I say -be like Pat, or Steve or The GM boys or the Anciant Mariner , get a new race sight. quit *****in and lets race. Sahwn

[Tim Kurcz]

The point

Tim one reason is they run the prop way deeper then we do here with a different type of prop.

Thanks for the clarification on gearcase height and props, George. If everyone is running the same height and purpose designed propellers in a single motor class, then there is no need to blueprint powerheads, gearcases, or change propshafts. All would race identical stock outboard engines.

As Paramutuel racing is gambling sport, you can only imagine how rigorous the engine/boat inspection must be. Those Yamato's must be perfectly matched or there would be howls of protest, perhaps even lawsuits. My point is if the Japanese racing organization is satisfied with the Yamato in its stock configuration, then we should too.

But the APBA Genie is out of the bottle: Newbies can't be competitive with a stock engine and are demotivated when they learn another $1500 is needed to get there. Conversely, if rules change to create a true stock outboard class, likely all current blueprinted equipment becomes illegal by definition, demotivating legacy racers.

There is no easy way out, except perhaps for the dark side. This is no easy task: I sincerely wish the SORC good luck in class rationalization.

Tim

[BP125V]

$1500

Thanks for the clarification on gearcase height and props, George. If everyone is running the same height and purpose designed propellers in a single motor class, then there is no need to blueprint powerheads, gearcases, or change propshafts. All would race identical stock outboard engines.

As Paramutuel racing is gambling sport, you can only imagine how rigorous the engine/boat inspection must be. Those Yamato's must be perfectly matched or there would be howls of protest, perhaps even lawsuits. My point is if the Japanese racing organization is satisfied with the Yamato in its stock configuration, then we should too.

But the APBA Genie is out of the bottle: Newbies can't be competitive with a stock engine and are demotivated when they learn another $1500 is needed to get there. Conversely, if rules change to create a true stock outboard class, likely all current blueprinted equipment becomes illegal by definition, demotivating legacy racers.

There is no easy way out, except perhaps for the dark side. This is no easy task: I sincerely wish the SORC good luck in class rationalization.

Tim

Yesterday it was $1000 to make a new 302 competitive, today it is $1500? Who in the world is spending $1500 to make a new 302 competitive? Can we please stop these foolish rumors? Get a 302, a good boat, some decent props and go testing, you will be competitive.

BTW - can't compare a stock Yamato gear case working for the racing in Japan to what we do here. Different boats, different props, different speeds, different prop shaft heights, they run on as controlled a body of water as you can ever hope for - we don't, different size courses, and of all the videos of their racing I have seen there are only 6 boats on the water at a time, obviously we can have up to 12. Apples to oranges.

[Tim Kurcz]

The point

As pertains to barriers to entry it doesn't matter if it's $500 or $1500 worth of mods, it's the fact they must be done.

You correctly point out we do things differently here in the USA - like make the same engine go faster - on a race course with more boats.

You've gotta love the passion in this sport: The Paramutuel formula does not satisfy APBA racers (boring?) so we change the rules to go faster. This involves modifications discussed. Guess that actually make stockers mod guys at heart!

Tim

[pav225]

$1000 or $1500?!?!?

I'd like to propose a rule to ban all comments from people who don't race the class or have no idea what they are talking about and simply pull numbers out of their ass!

$1000 or $1500 of motor work on a Y302?!?!? Come on! Quit spreading lies!

- Mike Pavlick

[B Walker]

In Japan they try to get the same performance from the motor in every stadium. No matter the elevation.

Every stadium has a different head specification and the reconditioned motors come here with a variety of different thickness heads on them.

So APBA rules allow the head to be milled to level the playing field. Last I checked Ric will ship the motor to you with this done to the APBA spec for 50 bucks or so.

Templating the foot became allowed because APBA racers wanted to run 3 blade wheels instead of two blades. 3 blade wheels have to run higher to spin up. This created a problem with the blunt foot at higher speeds and templating the foot became allowed.

The good news is a templated foot is less than 100 dollars.

Buy a 302, add a kill switch tether, get the tuned exhaust pipe flush and level, get the foot and head down to spec, go racing and be competitive.

No class currently has a lower barrier to entry than the classes that run 302's.

If your definition of "stock" is take it out of the box, put it on a boat, add prop and gas, be competitive, then you share a goal with the Sidewinder people. But I rarely see a single word of support for their efforts.

BW

[Big Don]

Few weeks ago TJ said in a roundabout way those figures are BS.

[csh12M]

I'd like to propose a rule to ban all comments from people who don't race the class or have no idea what they are talking about and simply pull numbers out of their ass!

$1000 or $1500 of motor work on a Y302?!?!? Come on! Quit spreading lies!

- Mike Pavlick

I think this reaction is a little over the top! No one is lying....it just depends on what you want done. 302 cost about $2,200 the gearcase rework, kill switch, maglocks, tap the tower for water pump and kickout bracket are going to cost you about $400. If you want to stop at that great, but not everyone does.

Do you want your rods honed out $200
Do you want lower port timing? Drop your sleeves and cut the block and case, $200.
Cut your head and remachine the squish band, $100
Blueprint your ports? Cost? because I dont know anyone with a CNC that does it in my area, but I know that motors have had it done?

You can easliy sink $1000 into your 302. Do you need to is a different question. I don't know. I hear people say you don't....but when I buy one I would.

Both of my 102 Nationals motors each had at least $1000 into blueprinting.

I am not saying you have to, but telling a new guy you can do the minimum and win is just as much of a lie as saying you don't need to do any of it.

[thepiranhabros]

Lies? What lies?

I'd like to propose a rule to ban all comments from people who don't race the class or have no idea what they are talking about and simply pull numbers out of their ass!

$1000 or $1500 of motor work on a Y302?!?!? Come on! Quit spreading lies!

- Mike Pavlick

I'm currently having about $4,400 in machine work done to my 102.

[Charlie Pater]

I ran a stock, from Japan no machining, 7/16 inch restricted 302 at the 20ssh nationals 6 or 7 years ago and also the same motor a couple of years ago. Was able to qualify for the final heat both times and was as fast as anyone out there. If I had driven better could have very well won either race. The only thing that was done to the motor was lower unit profiling and a 9/16 prop shaft installed. Work has been done on the engine since then and there has been no difference in performance. Maybe I just got a good one from Japan but the other 302 bought at the same time runs the same.

I like the idea of a "stock Yamato" class with no lower unit profiling and running the propeller shaft a bit deeper. Keeping the prop shaft stock also would be a good idea since different propellers would be required from the ones currently used in “C” i.e. propeller cost may not be an issue. We also have to face the fact of inspections. Since inspections are required, there needs to be specifications. That means minimal work may need to be done to meet those specs. Five hundred pounds sounds like a lot of weight. I do not like to lift heavy boats and believe 450#s would be reasonable. Running deeper would be a good idea to help normalize setups. Boat design would probably change. The big advantage would be lower cost and less confusion for new participants.

The estimates of over $1,000 to make the 302 competitive, to me, are exaggerated. The motors from Yamato are carefully assembled and fairly consistent. I think sealed motors are not a good idea. What happens if the motor is dumped? I like to take them apart to dry them out. Also, installing new rings would then be required to be done by the official “sealer”. Doing motor work is part of stock outboard racing. We all have to meet the same specifications.

Charlie

[pav225]

I think this reaction is a little over the top! No one is lying....it just depends on what you want done. 302 cost about $2,200 the gearcase rework, kill switch, maglocks, tap the tower for water pump and kickout bracket are going to cost you about $400. If you want to stop at that great, but not everyone does.

Do you want your rods honed out $200
Do you want lower port timing? Drop your sleeves and cut the block and case, $200.
Cut your head and remachine the squish band, $100
Blueprint your ports? Cost? because I dont know anyone with a CNC that does it in my area, but I know that motors have had it done?

You can easliy sink $1000 into your 302. Do you need to is a different question. I don't know. I hear people say you don't....but when I buy one I would.

Both of my 102 Nationals motors each had at least $1000 into blueprinting.

I am not saying you have to, but telling a new guy you can do the minimum and win is just as much of a lie as saying you don't need to do any of it.

Dean,
Maybe you are just wasting your money. I know a few STOCK Yamatos have won or done very well at recent Nationals. No lie.

Reality is that it's racing and people will always find ways to spend as much money as they like. The point I continue to try and make is that you can be very competitive with a Stock Y302 and not spend 1000s on blueprinting.

Call it a "lie" call it "BS" call it whatever you want...you don't need to spend $1000s on blueprinting a Yamato to be competitive.

We are all wasting way too much time discussing this and not providing any suggestions to improve it.


....I'm off to spend $20K on chroming my trailer.

- Mike Pavlick

[Big Don]

I can help with about 25% of the 20,000.00....sell me 225-V