New C stock class proposal

[BP125V]

but Mike....

I have been working with a new person that really wants to get back in the sport after watching his dad back when he was a kid.

His big question and concern is why can you buy a 302 stock motor for a stock class and then have to spend another thousand dollars to have it reworked to be competitive. He flat asked why is it called stock when it is not????

I did not have an answer for him except that it really is a mod motor without pipes. I think if something new is started it should be a TRUE stock class. The only change should be a 9/16 shaft so they can borrow or buy any prop. I also believe the shaft should be 2" deep and the weight should be 500 min so anyone can run this class, have fun, and be a lot more safe to start out with. This would also allow boats to be built with wood no composits to keep the cost down.

Just my

but you don't HAVE to spend the extra $$$ to go racing with a new 302, besides the prop shaft and kill switch. A new 302 WILL BE COMPTETITVE right away, especially for a new person to the sport - one who still needs to learn how to drive a boat, make good starts, learn how to set it up, learn how and what to test etc etc and someone who most likely will NOT go to the Nationals their first few years of racing. They can build up their performance level in the sport like everyone of us has - over time. Why do we let potential newbies have the impression that they can go win right away without putting some effort into it? Success in racing comes from effort and work, not the extra 50 RPM you gained by blueprinting your engine. You don't need that extra 50 RPM until you have done EVERYTHING ELSE FIRST! And why do we give the impression that you can't compete, especially in the Yamato classes, unless you spend big $$$ blueprinting your engine? That is just not true. The Yamato classes have been VERY strong here in the Midwest for 30 years and I have seen it first hand, what I have typed here is true! Get a Yamato, any Yamato, a good boat and a couple of props, go testing and learn how to start and drive and you will do well!



PS - at some level you have to ask who cares what the category is called. I understand that it is called stock and it is not factory sealed stock, but if you want to race you race, if you are not going to race just because of a name then....... you probably were'nt going to race anyways.

sorry, it's Monday

[B Walker]

So in the end something like this. Very simple

1) Optional 9/16 shaft or not. NO other change to the engine, tower or gearfoot
2) engine depth 2" min
3) weight 500 lbs min
4) boat tunnel 36", bottom lift 3", Afterplane length72" Overall length 11'

Let's assume the profile above was used, I'm wondering what what kind of average speeds would you expect to see ?

Sam,[/QUOTE]

Just a guess, low 60's for a Hydro and high 50's for a runabout.

The untemplated foot does some weird stuff at speeds over 60 or so. I am not sure how your going to get around that.

That is why the foot thinning got started in the first place.

BW

[BP125V]

amen brother

Let's assume the profile above was used, I'm wondering what what kind of average speeds would you expect to see ?

Sam,

Just a guess, low 60's for a Hydro and high 50's for a runabout.

The untemplated foot does some weird stuff at speeds over 60 or so. I am not sure how your going to get around that.

That is why the foot thinning got started in the first place.

BW[/QUOTE]

agree 1000% with BW about the shaping of the gearcase, especially the bulge on the bottom of the skeg. The ride is very weird with the bulge still on, you don't want to do it.

[BP125V]

save time?

Beach starts could save tons of time...besdie, it is better than flag starts....and Region 12 seems to use flag starts most of the time!

only if you have a beach on which to do beach starts. not all sites do. Plus I gurantee that a beach start is not quicker to do than what BSOA does at their races, especially Beloit and Oshkosh - we have the boat leave the pits as the current heat is finishing up. We do it at other sites too when we can, but at places like Beloit where the ramp is narrow you really HAVE to do it.

[Bob Rusnak]

Let's assume the profile above was used, I'm wondering what what kind of average speeds would you expect to see ?

Sam,

Just a guess, low 60's for a Hydro and high 50's for a runabout.

The untemplated foot does some weird stuff at speeds over 60 or so. I am not sure how your going to get around that.

That is why the foot thinning got started in the first place.

BW[/QUOTE]
It is correct in what you say, it is now a mod engine! OSY should be run as it was designed, if raced as C stock comply with C stock weight. Props shafts do not have to be modified, a reamer to your existing props solve the problem and does not ruin the prop. Got out of this class because of the modifications needed. Just my oponion.......Bob

[blueskyracer]

Just a guess, low 60's for a Hydro and high 50's for a runabout.

The untemplated foot does some weird stuff at speeds over 60 or so. I am not sure how your going to get around that.

That is why the foot thinning got started in the first place.

BW

agree 1000% with BW about the shaping of the gearcase, especially the bulge on the bottom of the skeg. The ride is very weird with the bulge still on, you don't want to do it.[/QUOTE]

But has a unshaped foot been tried at a depth of 2 inches?? As for the speed I don't know what it would be but I bet it would be a cheap and very competitive class. Then once a new person got hooked they could move up if they wanted to.

[Islandmon]

Just a guess, low 60's for a Hydro and high 50's for a runabout.

The untemplated foot does some weird stuff at speeds over 60 or so. I am not sure how your going to get around that.

That is why the foot thinning got started in the first place.

BW

It is correct in what you say, it is now a mod engine! OSY should be run as it was designed, if raced as C stock comply with C stock weight. Props shafts do not have to be modified, a reamer to your existing props solve the problem and does not ruin the prop. Got out of this class because of the modifications needed. Just my oponion.......Bob[/QUOTE]

Thanks Bob, I haven't had the opportunity to drive a non shaped foot so I can only guess about the weird stuff you mentioned. Just wondering what kind of bad manners you might expect to see with a non shaped foot and would they be different on a hydro vs. a runabout. Point being being that this new class is being designed more for more of a beginner or novice driver. With that said would there be potential safety issues to consider relating to the bad manners or could you learn to drive through them.

Thx,

Sam

[BP125V]

good point

agree 1000% with BW about the shaping of the gearcase, especially the bulge on the bottom of the skeg. The ride is very weird with the bulge still on, you don't want to do it.

But has a unshaped foot been tried at a depth of 2 inches?? As for the speed I don't know what it would be but I bet it would be a cheap and very competitive class. Then once a new person got hooked they could move up if they wanted to.[/QUOTE]

not sure Mike about the 2" depth, but would guess no since we don't race that low.

[blueskyracer]

This class could be for beginners, folks that don't want to spend all the extra money on engine rework and folks that are a bigger size but don't want to run DSH.

[blueskyracer]

If they were to adopt a class like this I might even get back into stock. Time to go back to building boats. I just wish it would warm up to a temp of more than single digits.

[BP125V]

agree

This class could be for beginners, folks that don't want to spend all the extra money on engine rework and folks that are a bigger size but don't want to run DSH.

And like I said Has Anyone Run an Unshaped Foot at a depth of 2" or more. I don't think so. Try it before you condemn it!

Agree Mike and you bring up a good point about trying things. We as a sport are great at coming up with ideas and then debating them endlessly without ever trying them. If someone thinks that this class concept would work at getting new people started or even stop drivers from quitting I am all for it, but first someone needs to put a bone stock 302 on a boat with the prop shaft at a 2" depth and try it out and report the results to the SORC and everyone here on HR.net. Then take it to the next level by having several of these rigs set up at a race and let them go at it in a special event. This can even be done at an APBA race as long as the special event is listed on the sanction - no extra fee required. When done report the results to everyone.
Until ideas like this are tried and proven they are not going to go anywhere.

You seem to be convinced that this class would work, help make it happen then by trying it and sharing the results with us. Skoontz thinks J's should run with shifter gearcases to keep costs down - run them and share the results with us. There is no secret conspiracy behind the doors of APBA preventing changes like this, the simple fact is that very few people follow thru on their ideas and actually get them on the water. This is a participant based sport, there is no R&D department at APBA HQ that can try all of these ideas, generate data, and implement them. Changes like this have to come from the club level.

Sorry if I rambled on Mike, I do actually agree with you that there might be some value to a class like this, but I'm just trying to point out the simple fact that unless the person whose idea it was, or his club at least, does not try it and make it happen, it won't happen. We just are not set up that way.

[B Walker]

I got my first 302 a few days before a race and did not have time to do anything but wire the kill switch and set the timing.

I ran it on a late 70's SeaJay CSR with a borrowed 3 blade prop and about 1" deep in the C2R class.

On every straightaway about half way up the boat "broke loose" violently and skipped out about 2 boat widths to the right.

I did not go out for the second heat and that night took a 60 grit belt sander to the skeg. Took off the weld bump on the bottom and did some very rough shaping.

Next day, no problem.

The boats these motors are designed for run very short courses and are single step hydroplanes. I have heard they barely get to 50MPH in Japan.

Do they run the pure stock foot in OSY-400 under UIM rules? If so, I dont know how they do it. Is there a height spec maybe?

BW

[blueskyracer]

Bill I would love to try it in the spring once the ice leaves but does anyone have a stock gear foot left? I know we sure don't. Can't afford a new motor right now.

[ram95]

Manufacturing tolerances vary

One aspect, Inspection. With the possible (I not completely convinced here) exception of the Sidewinders, all engines produced commercially have MFG tolerances. And these are listed in the Inspection Manual. Like it or not, I ought to be able to bring my engine up to the max tolerance if I choose to because SOME engines coming off the assembly line are already AT this dimension. Call it blueprinting or whatever. The point is, I shouldn't have to go on a hunt thru block after block trying to find an engine that has ports at the max (or min, etc) location.

And, don't stick some paragraph in there like: Must be run 'as cast', so that I can't bring my engine up to the same dimension as someone who has just won the Nats with one.

Sealed engines are NOT the answer. The logistics of such put that kind of racing in a class by itself. Don't compare SO with karts, Busch North, or NASCAR. We aint them (thankfully!!!).

So, you can talk about running an 'out-of-the-box' Yamato, but when you start hearing about this racer or that racer having an engine that really performs, you're going to be looking at where your engine is in terms of the MFG tolerance limits.

That's racing.

Alex

[krazy karl]

NorCal 400

This has all been done in region 11. We run the NorCal 400 class for beginners who would like to try boat racing for a day, weekend or a season. I actually haul one of these around on my boat trailer. They are all set up so all we have to do it put them on a cart, add gas and go racing.

We have a basic classroom session for new drivers and send them out for a practice lap or two before they actually race. It does not take very long for a pure rookie to be hitting the turns at full speed with complete confidence.

The boats are older CSH with stock Yamatos, 202's. The gear cases are stock with the bulge still on the skeg. We run the para-mutual 2 bladed props. I am not sure of the depth but I know it is at least 2 inches if not more. The boats are very stable and run in the 52 to 54 mph range.

The program has been quite successful and has brought many new racers into our region. The hardest part is convincing a new interested person to give it a try. They all have apprehensions and are a bit afraid to try. After their first heat almost every new driver has said "that was fantastic, I don't believe how well that boat turns". Then they are hooked but then we have to tell them how much it costs and that's when we lose a lot of them.

I help with this program and it is pretty rewarding when we do hook a new driver.
kk