New C stock class proposal

[mdaspit]

Tri hulls have a claiming rule, and I was told that only once has a motor been claimed.

Like nuclear bombs, the threat may be enough to keep people honest.

[aojesus]

World Karting Assoc. is having the same "too many classes" and "claimer" issues. We voted back in September. Karting is suffering the same issues as APBA. We aren't too worried about class reduction in Karting because all the "rule changing" is reducing members which in turn will take care of class reduction.

I can't imagine anyone in their right mind traveling across the country to race and have their motor claimed. The last place guy with a proven piece of S*&T could take the winning Kart motor by trading a couple hundred dollars and a slug motor. If the winner didn't accept the claim challenge they used to lose points and couldn't run the motor the rest of the season. The rule caused more problems than it was worth, caused a drop in participants, and backfired terribly.
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[chicagopaul]

"Here is what would happen....let's say I go out against 5 other racers and win all of my heats....a fellow racer could walk up to me, and at a set price, (2500 or something similar) claim my motor. Same thing goes with the prop."

I think I am missing something. What if you put a "claim" on my motor and I say NO!

Thanks,

Paul

[daveracerdsh]

Spec Class

I am at this point not sure what would happen if a racer declined the claim. That is a valid point, and I will look into it. This is the kind of info I need. Nothing we do is going to be perfect....and for the respondent to this idea that thinks I am looking for a cheaper way to race....you bet I am. And I am also betting there are quite a few other racers that feel the same way. I am sure not complaining about stock racing....I was thrilled to get my new Tohatsu, and really enjoy racing it. However...we are in a steady decline membership wise...and we are not bringing in a lot of new people to the sport. My idea is a way to drop some of the barriers to new people getting into the sport. Are there going to be teething issues with this idea? Of course. That is why I made this post on hydroracer...to get people's ideas....both positive and negative. As I gather more info, I will keep everybody informed.

[Mrs blueskyracer]

In the world of horse racing, you have to "make the claim" prior to the race being run. There is no walking up to the winner after the race and saying "hey I claim your horse". Horses are entered into claiming races knowing full well by their owners and trainers that they might be claimed. With horses there is no "trade" factor. (If you go to the race track you can (at least you used to be able to) tell if a horse has been claimed in the race, they hang a large disk shaped tag from its bridle at the end of the race.) The new owner takes possession of the horse immediately, as soon as the jockey has removed his saddle from it's back. It is a method for new owners to pick up ready to race horses. You do not have to enter a claiming race, but in many cases if you want to race your horse for experience or training you might have to enter a claiming race. Perhaps so many starts are required to enter a stakes race, this might be the only way a horse can get them. Some horses never get claimed, some get claimed frequently. There are claiming races for varying amounts of money $5k $7.5K, $10k, etc. the more expensive the race the better the horses. Some people would run horses in races way above their value because they probably were outclassed and would never get claimed.

You cannot put a claim on your own horse. But like everything else there are ways to beat the system.

Back to boat racing.....

In the world of boat racing it does seem a bit unfair that the owner is left with nothing but the cash. So I guess that you could make it a sufficient amount of money to purchase a new motor. However like was previously stated if that takes a couple of months to get a new motor many on us would be sidelined for the entire season. But then if the amount of cash is enough to buy a new motor then what is the incentive to claim a used motor by a potential new person when they could just go buy new.

I guess you would have to wait until the next weekend to claim either your motor back or claim another one for yourself.

[aojesus]

I am at this point not sure what would happen if a racer declined the claim. That is a valid point, and I will look into it. This is the kind of info I need. Nothing we do is going to be perfect....and for the respondent to this idea that thinks I am looking for a cheaper way to race....you bet I am. And I am also betting there are quite a few other racers that feel the same way. I am sure not complaining about stock racing....I was thrilled to get my new Tohatsu, and really enjoy racing it. However...we are in a steady decline membership wise...and we are not bringing in a lot of new people to the sport. My idea is a way to drop some of the barriers to new people getting into the sport. Are there going to be teething issues with this idea? Of course. That is why I made this post on hydroracer...to get people's ideas....both positive and negative. As I gather more info, I will keep everybody informed.

I agree 100% with your thoughts on costs and barriers.
Beside racing boats we have been in the Kart scene for 20 years and some D.I.R.T. racing as well. Any time I have seen a claim attempted the owner refused to give up the motor and lost points. His engine was banned for the rest of the season.
I think your idea here will be far more beneficial to our sport than throwing away motors and classes and club revenue. Please keep us posted.

[Mrs blueskyracer]

Now if you are entering your race horse in a stakes race that requires at least three finishes in the top three as part of the condition of entrance the you might have to run that moderately talented horse in a lower priced claiming race to ensure your win, place or show at least three times. This is where the real danger of loosing a good race horse could happen in a claiming race for not a great deal of money. Seen it happen, I have also seen them race unnoticed and never get touched.

[daveracerdsh]

Claiming rule.

So far so good....I honestly did not know how horse racing worked a claiming rule....I have heard of claiming races, yet had no idea how it worked. Whatever final proposal I come up with take into account as much info as I can learn, and will hopefully be fair to all concerned. I want people to be interested in the class, not scared of getting their motor claimed. I am certainly not complaining about Stock racing...like I said in a previous post I enjoy it more then I can say and want to see it grow and prosper. I think if we get this class off the ground people will have a blast racing it....and if they want to go a little faster they will move into CSH or DSH or something. Or maybe get a second boat? Also, the motor I want to see used is a 302...there is no reason why it could not be run in either 20 ssh or Csr etc. I do know of some racers that have won with box stock 302's. Just some more random thoughts. Dave

[chicagopaul]

Excellent excersie!

What if Instead of taking my motor and me having to deal with someone esles motor, or trying to figure out how to claim a motor I think is better than the one I have, that we work with what we already have.

APBA is losing racers and not getting new racers for reasons too numeous to go into in this forum. I would like to propose 3 things:

1) Put a moritorium on non-saftery rule changes for 4 years that no future commision can over turn. Then right or wrong, everyone knows the rules and classes and motors for 4 years. Can't get parts? Oh well. Buy a new motor or move to Mod or PRO. Sounds scary, but most of us stockers welcome Mod and PRO racers. Might make catagory changes, but racer turnout at local events might not be affected.

2) Throw all you got into putting on a drivers school. Yah I risked my boat and it ended up on the rocks. Yah, others risked their boats and 1 got wet. We had 8 students at our first and only school last year. (Kevin Scherts, and Michael Mackey and Bill Carter played a big role by being available to talk to folks and stay in touch with them.) I was a little bummed that we worked so hard and for our efforts we brought 3 racers into other clubs that did not actively participate in the school. None of the 3 new racers that we brought in were from Illinois, so they joind the clubs from the states they reside in. (No bitter grapes. Just a little disappointed, but we really need worker Bees in our club!) But still we brought in 3 to the sport so that ain't all bad for our first attempt ya know!

3) I do not agree with having a brand new race ready rig available for a newbie. Particularly since it cannot be driven until after purchased. Instead have a decient competitive race ready rig .. boat, motor, trailor, props, etc. That someone can use for driver school, like it, buy it for under $4500. Then the club can replace it with another and repeat the process.

That's what we are trying and I'll let you know how it goes.

Paul

[Original Looper 1]

Wow 33-99

In watching this thread, I have determined that some of the most decent and dedicated sports athletes are indeed boat racers. I will leave you with this thought:

One of the most brilliant people I have ever discovered in my quest for knowledge made the statement that "he who has a greater fear of change than logic is destined to suffer far greater change from the helm of fear."


Happy New Year to everyone at Hydroracer.net.



Regards,

Paul A Christner

[dwestby]

Back in the day and I might be wrong. Like Dave said it was a semi pro/stock class. Model 80 was the motor used. It was a class of its own. When raced the class you knew it was a claimer class. the motor were claimed at the end of the race or end of the weekend old owner choice. the old owner kept the prop or sold it seperate at any price he wanted. The claim was the same as a new motor. Why you ask so no one would put any extra in the motor and run it bare bones stock. If I could set this up it would be a novice class set on x amount of point then you would have to move up to next class the motor would fit into. It would be for the new drivers instead of putting a rookie in with someone who has ran the class for two or more years and had alot of lap and use to racing with 12 boat. The Nor-Cal system on want I have seen is pretty neat. The first year I raced the 80 was at Bakerfield Stock National as a local class and we had all different drivers myself a pro to bsh csh dsh i think there were elim at sunday late after noon. All two blade brass prop . I borrowed and boat and motor and had a hoot. First crash that might be my problem. Your pit crew could buy your motor and you buy it back the next no problem. Life does not have to be that hard other only make it that way

[bill van steenwyk]

This post is not for or against...........

a claiming rule, but since I was on the PRO Commission when the Formula 350 class was brought in, (1976) and had input on the rules by being on the committee that wrote the rules for the class when it was adopted by the PRO Category, this is what I remember of the claiming rule that was put in for one reason and one reason only. We knew that it would be extremely difficult for PRO drivers and owners to keep their fingers out of the motors if a sufficient penalty was not written into the rules and enforced. For that reason a claiming rule was part of the rules for Formula 350 from the start.

The claiming rule went like this:

Any motor could be claimed, at any time, by another competitor, and at the advertised sale price of the motor at that time, which I seem to remember was 475.00 for the Model 80 which was the Yamato available then. The prop was not claimable, and I believe if the person the motor was being claimed from had to pay frt on a replacement, he could also get that amount in addition to the claim amount. (It was mentioned on a previous post that motors are somewhat scarce now, or something similar, or it takes several weeks to get one. At the time, McKean always had several with him, and as he always attended the majority of the PRO races, either he or Denny Henderson, who was driving equipment for him would have a motor or could bring one to the next race, so availability was not an issue)

The motors coming from Japan at that time (may still be) were advertised to be completely rebuilt to new spec, and that supposedly all motors were equal, or as equal as a newly rebuilt motor could be, and that seemed to satisfy everyone that what you would get to replace one if claimed, would be as equal as possible to what you lost if claimed.

Quite possibly several things that made this claiming rule a "non-issue" for all practical purposes, was the class was brand new at the time, as was the Model 80 in the US, so no one had much of an opportunity to "massage" or blueprint one. Now that they have been here for 35 years along with their successors the 102, 202,302,etc., that raises other issues. Also we had a 5 year limit on running the class, as it was designed as a "beginner class" for new racers as a PRO "A" was approaching 75 MPH in speed at that time, and the small number of 125's were not all that dependable or readily available as they are now, and some felt we needed a "starter" class slower than 75 MPH.

I never was aware or heard of a motor being claimed during this time frame. Perhaps one was, but not that I was ever aware of. As previously mentioned, the fact a motor could be claimed seemed to be threat enough to keep everybody honest. We did have some suspected of "playing loose with the rules" at one time, and that driver and owner was protested. Unfortunately the owner refused to allow the motor to be inspected until the next day after the protest was filed, at which time it was found to be legal. BUT, that left a bad taste in many folks mouth, and also tainted the young mans accomplishments. The owner, or at least the responsible adult that brought the equipment, was a commission member, should have known better, and did the young man driving his boat a great disservice, in my and others opinion.

I never thought, or heard from others, that having a claiming rule for that class was harmful in any way, in fact the opposite, as there was much favor in having a strict rule to keep folks from playing with the internals. If they could lose the motor, why invest a lot of time in playing games if they lost it all to a same money claim. Of course we were not blessed with as many motor's or competitors as Karting either, as has been noted in a previous post.

For whatever reasons, the claiming rule worked well for the PRO category at the very start of the Yamato import's into the US, and that is all we were looking for at the time. To enact one now, with all the blueprinting that has taken place legally, would probably not be fair to those who have played by the rules to this point, or at least that would be my attitude if I got a motor claimed that I had 2K in over the purchase price to make it really competitive, and had no way to recoup that investment. If you allow that type investment to be recouped by the one the motor is being claimed from, then you have defeated the reason for a claiming rule to start with.

This is a tough problem, and everybody will not be satisfied no matter the solution. Sounds like the rest of boat racing at this time.

[form-e one]

when i ran novice 350/yamato80 in 76,,,, yes a claiming rule ..and wortinger almost bought mine at lawrence lake,,,one year but backed down at last minute,,,,, mine was blue printed, as his was i know,,, ,,, claiming rule might help a bit but you guys have the same problem now as we had then, is to much loosenes in your specs,,,,, come on now 13-17 deggrees on your squish band,,, jeeze,,, that would affect the power band alot,,,, it is the same as in the 80,,, tollerances to loose !!! so the fast guys push it with there engines as always,,,claimer rule didnt deter many people in the old days,,,,, we still blue printed them... i think it needs to be like 45ss,,,, if there any scratches file marks, or anything on the motor ya tossed yes there are ways to beet it now days,,,, sooo make the tolerances tighter in the motors,,, same with the tohatsu,,,, 35 thousandths difference in port heights.... jeeze give me a brake,,,,, that and different specs in the towers for the exhaust???? old vers new,,,,,mise well call it d-mod...hehe....tighten up the specs and i bet everyone alot closer when they race,,,, that and a dedicated web site/link to suppliers of our sport.. with pics of there products and prices and avaibility,,..and what they sell instead of ging to 3 different web sites to find what we need...hard for me and i bin doing it awhile,,, that why i went mod mise well be legal if ime going to grind on motors...just my 10cents

[Racerkyle20]

302 availability

If this class goes through and the kinks are worked out one possible backlash i saw on here was 'it will take months to get a new motor.'

I feel like thats not true statement. Ricky Montoya is the yamato dealer for the USA. Ricky has at least 60 motors in his seattle garage (i've seen it personally). Now if there ever is this claiming rule and a motor gets claimed; APBA and Ricky could have a deal where he ships the motor faster than normal to anywhere in the USA. Now what if that's not fast enough? APBA could buy a certain amount of 302's (like the tahatsu) and have the 302available at different race sites (held by different clubs) all over the USA. Thus making a new motor availiable for a person that loses their motor to the rule.

Just saying this is a raw proposal by Dave. Some kinks could easily by worked out before people start dissmissing it. Like the one above...

[Mrs blueskyracer]

Kyle, didn't know Ric had that many in stock. That was the biggest concern I had was that motors wouldn't be able to be replaced quickly enough to continue the season.

I still think this claiming thing is an intriguging idea. We just need to make sure that it's fair all the way around so that the person who's motor is claimed can replace it and continue racing. Otherwise we are losing one racer to gain another and the net effect is "zero". I guess if you have a motor to swap when you claim it could be the motor and x number of dollars (for a rebuild kit) or enough to replace the motor if nothing is available for the "trade" portion.