Problem Solving 101

[Jim]

concerning engines.... (biggest barrier to entry IMO)

I was curious. Is there anybody who visits this site and participates in these discusions, who is in a position to make decisions/center of influence ect... (in the sport) that does NOT agree that there should not be ONE class in which you have to surf the hydro web sites to buy anything to get started? Is there anyone who would argue that there is NO NEED to make sure each racer has the opportunity to say "well, I am new so I will go used to see if i like it or, I am new and I want to pick up a brand new engine and not worry about it, or who owned it...." I just can't see anyone thinking there is not a problem. If we all agree this is not good, then what steps can we take to fix it?

My concern is some people think "well there is equipment out there and if you want to race, you can. Just keep shopping"

Because that is basically what you are saying to some potential new racers. IMO

[Steve Johnson]

Same old thinking

Seems to me that every 12 years or so the powers that be come to the concluson that all we need is a class that you can buy of the showroom floor and just show up and race. These ideas always bomb. ( merc cub) ( mouse boats) I don't mean any disrespect to the guys that tried this.I know how hard thay worked for the love of the sport. the duck boats are about the closest thing to a success story.( maybe race craft A- deal). I just wonder if we are even looking at the RIGHT PROBLEM , not to mention the right cure. What we really need is interested Racers. work to find them, and the equipment will follow.Individual efforts can only do so much. I remember some years ago a cigarette billboard with an awesome front shot of a pro hydro on it. A Promotional billboard in every state with contact for the host club. Its been long enough since Merc/OMC stopped promoting us. We need to promote ourselves, thats the product,not the engines. Cool people ,doing thrilling stuff, with exotic boats! Very few people can identify with a kneel down boat. How can you want it if you don't know it exists.
Steve 77-G

[Jim]

I think this would be a good time to ask DonW11 if that strategy works. I believe he has been in contact with a few "interested racers", which is what we need, and see how the theory of "the equipment will follow" worked out for them. We all have out own ideas, but if a interested racer says, "this is great, im in. Now what?" How can we tell them "well we need to find you a motor, time to hit the classifieds." How is that a good thing?

[Big Don]

Let me first say I’m not trying to look at the glass as half empty. I love this sport. I want it to grow and get better, but if we don’t admit the are issues, we will never get there. We need to step back and look at our sport from the outside. It seems to me that we are so close to the issues that we can’t see them at times

So….Has it gone well? NO.

The comments that I posted form a potential new guy… Read what he said. If it is not clear that we have a problem then maybe I’m the one that just does not get it.

I have a guy in Texas that wants to start the J program down there. He has been looking for maybe 5 rigs. He called me a week ago and said, “I can’t believe how hard it is to find complete “J “engines”, he would go with Mercury or OMC’s. He said that everyone he called said, I’ll sell you one minus the foot. I will admit I offered him the same thing. But it does not do him much good to not have a lower unit. He said everyone say’s they should be available in the winter. What if there not? He said I don’t want to buy 5 boats and then not be able to get engines. THAT IS A LITTLE SCARY FOR A NEW PERSON. He was going to take at least one or two of our older boats but has since decided to hold off until he can figure out what they want to do as a group because there is no easy way to acquire our equipment.

Now I know there are a lot of good transactions and most new racers that get started things go smoothly. But since we are not being overwhelmed with new racers we have to do everything we can to get and keep each one when they find us.

In closing, (I wanted to sound like Ed in court, Ed would use much bigger words though) my opinion is we have several issues to deal with, each one could and should, probably have its own thread: We have a serious equipment issue. Yes you can find stuff if your willing to scrounge. Buy the engine here, buy a boat there, buy a trailer over there, and tell them but don’t buy anything till you talk to me because you don’t want that boat the ????? are selling because it is really slow…. I like the idea of using the promotional fund to put some rigs together and have them ready if someone is interested.

We have too many classes that go about the same speed…

We have to small of fields at the races…

We don’t have enough payoff meaning “seat time”, drive 5 hours to the race, pay 30.00 entry fee then get one heat because the new (or current) guy races CSH and there are elims… (If there are elims we need to have consolation heats.

OK, let me have it.

[dholt]

On Track

DA Jr.

You are right on the money.

I though Jacobson had plenty of OMC gearcases. Isn't Sea Way Marine selling them...building them...something? Is is out of supply until winter? Is that what APBA is saying?

You're correct about available equipment. That's the number one issue.

I'm not a machinist...so I can't build motors. But I'd offer my marketing experience/services to help a manufacturer get the word out.

What's new with the Hot Rod?? Can't someone in the circle of the NEW Hot Rod write at least an article for Propeller...explaining what the current situation is?
People need to know...they WANT to know...what is going on with ALL motors/parts.


And man, you got it right about more bang for the buck. More seat time...that is a big plus. Fewer classes gives you more time to do that.

D.

[ryan_4z]

Finding motors doesn't seem to be a problem. I am sure that between Gary Pond and Philip DiFebo there are probably 6-8 A motors for sale. The problem seems to be gearfeet in the J/A classes. This is a situation in which our hands are tied to a certain extent. If noone is willing to make the gearfeet then there wont be any more available. This situation could possibly be somewhat resolved if we try to work towards the universal foot idea. It would be a better investment to produce gearfeet if they were being used in every stock class. I think that, with the exception of the A gearfoot, the problem with new people finding equipment can easily be resolved if we just help them a little bit. I cant think of any piece of equipment that any of us couldn't find in just a couple of phone calls. Except for maybe a Merc 25. I was under the impression that the SORC setup a network for finding used equipment at the national meeting this past year. Maybe one of the commissioners can elaborate on that for us and explain why it hasnt been put into effect yet. It seems to me that if we had such a network up and running that equipment would be readily available. Of course it would be the responsibility of the people selling the equipment to get in touch with whomever was co-ordinating this. If some of us would put as much energy into helping new people find equipment, as we do into discussing these issues here then I garauntee we would be able to get and retain more new racers.

[ryan_4z]

As far as the seat time issue I also agree. I think that I have an answer for that issue as well. This is something that would also help kill off some of the weaker classes. Dad and I developed a schedule that is composed entirely of the biggest and most important classes in SO/MOD/PRO classes.

JH
ASR
ASH
20ssH
CSR
CSH
BMH/CMH/25MH
250ccH/350ccH

With this schedule we could run 4 days of racing in 2 days. I feel you would get bigger turnouts in every class because people would be willing to travel further to race each class 4 times in one weekend. Entry fees would be 10-15 dollars per class per racing day. Now I dont know if this schedule would work everywhere, but it could be tweaked for different areas. I know that the B class is still very popular in the Midwest, and hopefully will be growing dramatically nationwide very soon. But on the East coast these are the dominant classes. Some guys may not get to race all there classes but the ones they would race would run twice as many times. I believe that with the potential for bigger turnouts, clubs could still generate enough money to pay the sanction fees.

[mike ross]

Here's a new twist. If this new D motor that Mr Bass has is readly available. Lets make a deal to trade in your old Merc 44xs and recieve a new D motor. Maybe a few bucks to make the switch. The old 44xs motors could be parted out to the Mod division or AOF, NBRA so that everyone could start at the same level. Maybe ABBA could help offset the cost that Mr Bass would be losing to get the ball rolling. I know this isn't going to make Mr Scott happy as his efforts to get the 44xs resurected would be defeated. I think we need to have motors ready to go. All these posts prior are indicating that this solves one of our major hurdles. When we were in Milwakee last year we approved this Tohatsu/Bass as a new D motor. Here we have a chance to turn over a new leaf and get a new manufactured motor. Last year at the meeting we made the statement that we need a motor that someone can write a check for and recieve the motor a week later. As long as we have this manufactuer and he can assure us delivery this is what we asked for. The Mercury at that time was a piece meal purchase and that is what hurt it. We asked if APBA would help offsett the cost to get those Merc's assembled so they were readily available. I think Dave Scott did indicate he had some at the nationals. Anyway just an Idea. Mike

[Jim]

Well i will say my piece and slide to the side. My first post ever was the first one you see. And it posed a simple question that I believe has been answered. There is not even an agreement on what the problem is. One group thinks there is nothing wrong with a new racer, ready to drop a lot of cash on a motor to have to shop for a used one. The other group says "hey, if we are to get new people in, and keep existing people running, we need to be able to buy new motors. so how/who can make/sell em, ect"
Well, the above pro/con post from a potential new racer says it all. (in my humble opinion) a lot of the int people are from other forms of motorsports and we are the ONLY motor sport that says come to us, and we will help you search for the best used stuff around. I am sorry but I feel like the hockey players/owners. There is such a gap to recognize the problem, there is no way to address it. I will watch the more senior racers/board members talk it out and hope for the best but if you don't think that the new racer (esp coming from carting/cars/moto) is not going to think twice when he/she sees they have to shop the buy/sell forum to pick up a power plant for their new sport..... i just think we are missing the boat.

[fitsracing]

To 4Z

How did you determine what are the most important classes in APBA?

How did you come up with $10 to $15 dollar entry fees?

Ara you implying that BMH, CMH, and 25MH should be combined?

[ryan_4z]

Fitsracing,

ques 1-These are classes that I see as being the most popular, and most competitive on the east coat.

ques 2-If you average 10 boats per class, at 8 classes per race day, over race days. A $10 entry fee will generate $3200. This is comparable to a $20 per class per day entry fee. But you would be running twice in one day.

ques 3-Yes, unless one of those classes had say 8 entrys, then it would be run seperately. The goal here is to run the biggest classes, with big fields, more often per weekend.

Jim,

The cash argument doesn't fly because used motors are not any more expensive than new ones. What I am suggesting is that we make the shopping easier by organizing all the used equipment, and then help the new guys do the shopping, or do it for them. With the gathering of people in the know on this website it should not take more than one evening to find someone a rig that they want. A rig of cheap, competitive equipment. The fact that the stuff is out there is not the whole part of the argument. Its important to remember that for many of us the stuff isn't hard to find, we just need to help those who don't know anybody in the sport. The problem with finding new equipment is that we aren't gonna be able to go buy complete motors from the factory. We have a unique opportunity here with Hot Rod, and the Bass D. We have motors being manufactured for our sport. Mercury isn't going to do this for us, OMC isn't going to do this for us. We have to do it for ourselves. This isn't dirt bikes or go-karts, its very different, we have to be self reliant. And that makes it very difficult to have ready, in-production, racing motors for people to buy of the shelf. I don't think anyone would disagree that that would be preferable, but it is a very difficult thing to accomplish.

[Joe J]

A gearcase

A while ago Greg Jacobsen offered to build the A gearcase if there was enough interest, and I believe no one took the time to answer.

Here someone offered to help resolve what is one of the biggest problems in teh stock category, and now people are again complaining about the lack available gearcases.

It seems to me that someone needs to contact Greg and look into this.

Joe Johnson

[ryan_4z]

Greg was building the gearfeet, but I believe he stopped because he was losing money. Im not sure though. He gets on this message board maybe he can reply and let us know what the current situation with the gearfeet is.

[fitsracing]

4Z

Your selection of classes, is it your opinion or did you do actual analysis of class participation.

Where are the 25MH's on the east coast?

From APBA high points there are 32 250cch, 30 350cch . In the northeast I rarely see them at race sites.

BMH 47, CMH 57 both are very strong classes in the northeast.

FEH 48 another strong class in the northeast, they are at every race with good representation.


DMH 63 not a strong NE class but a strong APBA class.


Or are you talking local races, if so, say so because if what you are encouraging nationally I believe will discourage racers from running. Your thinking has already got me thinking that why should I stay involved when certain people seem to want to discourage me from attending thier events. Regardless, when we show, our team contributes at least 5 entries per day and as many as 8.

[ryan_4z]

fitsracing,

The shedule I put up was something based on my opinion of what is popular on the east coast as that is where I do a majority of my racing, and yes it is something I am talking about doing on a local level, but with minor changes from region to region could work nationwide. You are right 25MH is not something that is run out here, the only reason I thought of it is because it is compatible with BMH and CMH.

I included the 250 and 350 so as to encourage pro racers to come, maybe a DMH/FEH would be a better class to have out here. You are right that FEH is pretty strong here in the east, probably a better fit for us. The mindset I am going at with this though is that maybe some people drop the smaller less competitive classes and get into bigger ones, in addition to the fact that you would be racing each of those classes 4 times per weekend. If you run 2 classes for example you would race 8 times(16 heats), for practically same cost in entry fee. That is the equivalent of running 4 classes right now.

The idea is never to push drivers away, but in this case to draw all the drivers from the small classes into the bigger ones. The reason I chose the classes I did is because I feel that they were the best classes to include nearly everybody in our sport. Someone may leave there hotrods at home, but run the A twice as much. I was also looking at this from a predominantly Stock mindset as that is what I race. This would narrow the schedule down, give everyone more bang for the buck, and encourage participation in the bigger more competitive classes.