Pickle-fork question

[Brian10s]

Was going to wait on this one but with the other thread on pickle vs round nosed hydros, I thought I better get this out there, as it has been bothering me. Having just been on the wrong end of a hydro, I have a question to all you hydro boat builders and designers. And in no way am I blaiming anyone. This is how boats are made today. 30 years ago it was different.

I recently was involved in a "no-fault" accident in which one pickle fork went through the side of my Roper and the point inpacted my thigh while the other one took out another large section of the cockpit. (side note: Almost 3 weeks later, I am fine, stitches are out and I am off the crutches. I got extremely lucky and I know it).

So my question is why pickle forks and/ or why do the pickles need to be so pointy. I look at Dean Sutherland's C and see his flat nose and can't help to think that we don't need to make them so pointy. Or Ed Hearn's (? or is it Swain's now?) A Mod boat with the break away pickle points and think why not on all new boats?

If someone could explain the design and thoughts going into the sharp points, I would greatly appreciate it. I like the look too, but other than that why? Heck, if you don't want to post (trade secrets) please email me. I just would like to know.

Thanks,
Brian 10s

[Bill Huson]

Pointy sponsons look cool!

Other than the style issue, there is no reason, hydrodynamically or aerodynamically, for pointy sponsons. My sponson ends were blunt and flat. The boats that scare me are the carbon fiber rigs with points. Wood *might* bust on a helmet, but carbon fiber would spear a helmet like a nail through a grape. I belive OPC boats have some sort of crushable sponson ends which is a good idea for those that prefer style (pointy) over function.

[sam]

The point is the best aerodynamic shape for a solid.

In Europe and in OPC racing here in the US - breakaway pickles are required.

The sharp, pointy and hard as steel carbon fiber pickles scare me. I am afraid it is only a matter of time before a very pointy carbon fiber pickle does something very rude..... (hmmmm, maybe its not that bad to be behind Hunter after all). If I were building carbon fiber boats I'm pretty sure I'd make blunt pickles with soft break away points. Maybe foam covered with something that isn't actually hard.

[bfitz]

ask Rich Palmer about how a hydro pickle speared his yamato exhaust leg and went right through it........ask Bob Goller about how a J hydro pickle went through his calf, after it went through the side of the patrol boat..know what they both had in common? both hydros were made of WOOD....seems to me that if wood can pierce an aluminum exhaust housing, a fiberglass helmet would be childs play..Racing is inherently dangerous boys, you want to be safe, learn how to crochet.

Plus, runabouts are awfully pointy, and all that force is concentrated on one point....very extra dangerous...

I'm going to propose, in the name of safety, that all race boat be balsa, that engines with propellers be banned {you could get cut} and that gasoline not be allowed since it could hurt your eyes if you poured it into them....how's that? safe enough? maybe we should also have mandatory rev limiter set at 2800 rpm to limit noise and speed....so we can be safe....

[Brian10s]

Brian,
You are 100% correct that racing is dangerous. Anyone who has strapped on a bucket, knows that and accepts it. If you want to be 100% safe, stay on the beach. My question had nothing to do with making boatracing soft and cuddly. Or strapping boxing gloves or pillows to the front of each boat, just in case.

What I asked was what was the purpose, besides it looks cool, of a pointy pickle?

Not which material is better/ worse in a accident. They are all bad, that's why we all try VERY hard not to have accidents. I do not want to know why we can't all hold hands and sing campfire songs after a race. We are all big boys (and girls) and we all know what we are getting into. I am not nor am trying to use this to say, "he should have . . . or could have . . ."

Just what is the reasoning behind the pointy pickle. Nothing more or less.

Please everyone stop the jabs and smacks at the boat builders. This is not their doing or responsibility. Pointy boats have evolved over the years. Without them, we are all riding a piece of plywood or a log into the 1st turn. Besides, a couple of them are friends. We should all be nice to them.

[David Weaver]

One might consider placing kevlar reinforcements inside the cockpits. I have seen Mike Krier do this recently on some new runabouts. This is mandatory in 250 and 350 in UIM. Personally, I would rather see this required before the break-away pickles. But break-away pickles may be a good way to go as well. Just have 2-3 phase-in period, so we don't chase everyone out of the sport.

[modracer7b]

I'm Amused

For years, I lobbied against mandatory cut-resistant suits. My position has always been that we as the drivers should have the choice of whether we wear one or not. I, personally did not want to wear one and never felt that wearing one made me any safer. I have steadily been lectured, mocked and crucified for my view. Now, we start talking about the issues (pointed pickles, unsafe setups, etc.) that are in many ways responsible for the mandatory cut suits and all of a sudden, there are lots of naysayers with the "racing is dangerous" line, don't mess with the rigs philosphy. Since I never felt racing without a cut suit was dangerous, where were all you guys when I wanted to race without a cut suit. Was it because racing without a cut suit was not going to affect your back-yard?????

- Bill Rosado

[bfitz]

Brian10s,
I don't know why they're pointy, but I like the look, and maybe it has some type of aero reason. I really don't know. What cranks me up are these ideas to ban things or not allow things in certain boats or classes.. If it is decided that we need soft noses, then I want it to apply to EVERY race boat out there, not just hydros.

Mod 7b ; I agree with you. it's your butt. you want to wear kevlar -great, you don't want to, just as good...it's your skin....personally, I wear kevlar gloves and a neck collar. I know lots of guys don't, but that's their decision. I also wear a helmet on my motorcycle regardless of state law...but I made that choice and wouldn't force somebody else to follow it. The kevlar, no kevlar argument was before my time, so I really can't speak to it.

P.S.- Have you heard from Kenny? How is he feeling?

Dave, I like the kevlar reinforcement idea,not necessarily for safety, but because it will make the boat strongerand less flexible. I think a rigid boat handles better than a flexible one.

Now I'm curious, who make the first pointy 3 pointer? Glen-L?

[modracer7b]

bfitz

I haven't spoken to Kenny since Monday night. At that time he was mainly just real sore and expected to be out of work for up to two weeks. Aside from that, he was in good spirits. I'll probably talk to him sometime this weekend and will post an update after I do.

- Bill Rosado

[Sonny]

I have been asking this very same question for about a month now, and got some very interesting feedback, but being a novice driver I had to see for my self. So in the last three days I have tryed both, a brand new pickle fork, and a vintage shovelnose. both boats ran well with a Yamato 102, but I noticed that the pickelfork was a lot more sensitive to any little change, and recovered faster out of the corners. I am also under the impression that in a headwind the picklefork is a little harder to blow over. But I must admit the shovelnose feel's like a safer ride, a little more stable in the straightaways. all things being equal, if I had the gross missfortune of bobing arround in the path of a gang of race boats I would prefer they be shovels, and not a flying forks.

[hydroplay]

Yes, OPC tunnels have removable/collapsable sponson tips. Several stock/mod boats have been built with similar features. I think Del Snyder and Bob Trolian have both tried it. However the stock/mod guys frequently pick up a boat by the pickles and few, re: none, customers wanted to pay for the obvious additional cost. I'm sure all you guys who think this is a great idea haven't ventured forth to set an example with your boat having them, have you?

I'm guessing that a optimally constructed carbon or composite boat would be no worse than a wood boat in this respect. Wood is not horribly strong except in compression. The sponson tip is comprised ot the airtrap/inside sponson wall, deck and sponson chine of fairly flimsy plywood attached to at least three stringers. The plywood can bend and shatter but the stringers are more or less in absolute compression as the pickle impacts something. The skins of the sponson on a composite boat are probably not much stiffer/stronger than the plywood ( or it would be heavier than necessary) but the composite pickle doesn't have the stringers. Egg shells aren't very strong but an egg is surprisingly strong due to its shape. A sponson is not unlike the egg.

[jsilvestri]

Possibly, we are missing the point here. I believe we all want racing to be safer and if there is a good idea to make racing safer, then thats great. If crushable sponson tips were mandatory, lets say, that would make our boats safer for our competators. As far as making racing safer for ourselves, protecting us from our own lack of good sense, thats a whole different story. For example, if kevlar wasn't mandaroty and someone did not want to wear kevlar, then so be it. If they get hurt, its their own fault. As bfitz mentioned, he wears a motorcycle helmet regarless of the state law. I too wear a helmet when riding my motorcycle, and here in Ohio I don't have to if I don't want, its my choice. However, it isn't my choice to have someones sponson tip tear my butt up.

As in all good safety rules, if its a good idea for the hydros and the runabout, then make it so. I'd have no problem modifying my runabout so the tip were crushable if that was the rule. We have to change with the times and technology.

[arltralite]

The point is the best aerodynamic shape for a solid.

In Europe and in OPC racing here in the US - breakaway pickles are required.

The sharp, pointy and hard as steel carbon fiber pickles scare me. I am afraid it is only a matter of time before a very pointy carbon fiber pickle does something very rude..... (hmmmm, maybe its not that bad to be behind Hunter after all). If I were building carbon fiber boats I'm pretty sure I'd make blunt pickles with soft break away points. Maybe foam covered with something that isn't actually hard.

i just want to smash my computer screen when i read some of the crap on here.
hunters boat and all other boats i build are all foam, covered with a thin layer of carbon. until someone does a comparision crash test on the boats i build and a wood boat, dont point any fingers. you might be surprised at the results.

[HRTV]

Hey Matt trust me your not alone when it comes to smashing your screen. I am on my third monitor. With winter right around the corner the BS will only get worst before it gets better. Hang in there buddy and dont let these post get to you.

[Composite Specialties]

Just let It Go!!!!!!!!!

There will always be the uneducated when it comes to composites, so it is best to just Let It Go........................So many experts, so little builders.