Hydro Tuck-under

[csh12M]

Another good point

Again Sam I think you are right on with your second post. Do you agree that their should be some height limit though....I would propose 3/4 of an inch....what would you think of that, would it solve the problem or will people just tuck big at 3/4 of an inch and try and pull BSH wheels? What do you think Sam?

Also what was the answer with the Bergauer, Palmqusit boat question? They both had plexaglass cowls?

Later,
12M

[ryan_4z]

I also agree that 1-3/8" height rule is to low. But I don't see how changing that would eliminate this so called problem. I cant think of any reason why the extreme tuck setup would loose its effect if you jack the motor up. You would only be sacrificing control. I dont think this is something we need to be regulating anyway. It is the drivers responsibility to make sure that they are in control of there rig when its on the water.

[David_L6]

Drivers' responsibility.... drivers' choice....

<!--StartFragment -->Personally, I don't like any of the rules that have been talked about here on HydroRacer lately.

I hate kevlar (cut suits, whatever you want to call them). Let that be the drivers' choice.

I've never raced a class that had any kind of set up rules.... Don't plan on it either. Looks to me like the only thing those kind of rules are doing is encouraging unstable set ups. The only way I can see something like this working is if all the equipment is as identical as possible (boat, motor, prop) and then have someone other than the driver set up the motor height, kick out angle, etc. Set 'em all up the same. A class like that would bore the hell out of me.

[Flying Squirrel]

I know I have heard many veteran driver's in ASH who have stated that the kick in issue does diminish handling. That being said, I think it is up to the individual driver to take responsibility for what is safe for their specific rigg. I don't believe "Kick in" should be regulated. I for one could not hold a DSH down for more than 3/4 of a straight away if I was limited to a 1/4 inch.(Unfortunately I speak from experience on that one...Ouch) I'm closer to 3/8, and I have no handling issues. If we start here what's next? Maybe regulate the pitch on props too?

I think the driver can deal with this issue by properly matching boat, prop, and overall set up. He/she knows what feels right.

If there is a cronic concern in your class about a particular driver there are steps that can be taken through the racing committee and referee.

No one wants to go into the first turn with an out of control boat off your sponson. So let's all just drive with our heads.


Just an opinion,

Flying Squirrel

[mike ross]

My 2 cents worth!!!!
We went to prop shaft heights when we had competitors running the prop shaft above the bottom. We saw that when his motor broke lose he went out of control. So a height restriction in my opinion was a good thing because now we all no the next guy should be getting a bite. Dean makes a good point that maybee we could rethink the 1 3/8 vs 3/4. But here is were the fun begins. We are all going to go test ( I hope ) and start playing with our set ups. If you come in after running the tuck under senerio and the gps is showing you that super number you are going to go try it. We have again a ton of people who have redesigned boats, props, to get the current rules we have to work for them. We are racers and I would expect that. I have had several boats that if I can't tuck under they would not be safe to race do to poor handling. So again lets get some guys to go out and test different things and bring back the data so we can make changes that make sence. If we find that the bullet under the bottom is unsafe then we can address that. I know there are teams that have tested and know how to set there rigs up if the coarse is bumpy, windy, 4 boats vs 12 boats, big coarse vs small coarse. I can't see us changing a bunch a things because someone said his rig felt out of control. Maybe it had nothing to due with the tuck under. Maybe a rocker in the bottom, to small of boat, to much lift for that class. Those three things are problems I have had and I,m sure there are more I forgot. Anyway keep testing and bring the commision some data so we can get out there and do battle with one another. SEE YA ON RACE COARSE!!!!! BIG!!!!! Mike

[stu_racing]

as a boat builder i can tell you that kicking the bullet under is a necessary thing on some boats. some boats won't allow you to do it tho. again, like everyone else has said these crashes are just an imbalance of boat-to-motor-to-prop set-up. some builders are putting in a lot of lift but no rocker, making it so you have to kick the bullet in to keep yourself from blowing over backwards. but from a design standpoint this is supposed to make the boat handle better, allowing the driver to shift his weight instead of having to move all the way to the front of the boat to turn and all the way to the back to pop it out of the corners. but also as a racer of 20ssh i really have no positive idea that you guys are doing similar things to us. i currently am 3/8 under and on some days want to go a little more under because the boat feels to flighty. i guess what putting the motors down so low did back when this rule was introduced was the rule beat the boats, motors and props of that time. now the rule only beats the motors from what i read and somewhat the props. the boats however are beating the rule. i'm not saying a rule is needed or not needed but if you are looking to keep these boats under control the solution lies in boat design and not a restriction on tucking it uder or kicking it out.
just my 2 cents, you can ignore it u want

[reed28n]

This subject is nuts! You will never convince me that we will protect unsafe drivers from themselves.

Tuck under has nothing to do with a driver setting himself up to fail.

I watched Brian Palmquist run his DMH on the edge at Whitney Point and it was very exciting. If I tried to run that same set up I surely would have gone out of the boat. Brain's experience kept him in the boat and won a Title.

The problem comes when someone like me tries to race someone like Brians set up. And I am sure his bullet was not under the boat and I am equally as sure his tuck under was not exaggerated.


Matt D'Augustino won many National titles and I am sure he would have set up his boat how ever it needed to be to go fast. Stop trying to legislate your competition to the beach. Work harder and race within the rules stop trying to change for the sake of change or would rather we just all anchor our boats so you can just race around us.

Scott Reed

[bfitz]

Hear Hear!!!!!!!!

[Matt Dagostino]

Missing the point!

I only can report on what I see...........I am not at odds so much with motor 'tuck' but location of the "TORPEDO" in relation to the boat bottom.. For years I would run my Furnals, Hemps, GP's,Yale's etc etc, under considerably without a problem (but not under the bottom of thr boat) but in my travels all over the East and Midwest I have seen that the 'several' drivers now attempting to shovel the "TORPEDO" up under the true boat bottoms are presenting a real safety issue here. When experienced drivers tell you they are out of control with these "new' wave setups it is perhaps time for our Commisioners to get involved and do what is in the best interest of all its current and future competitors............

Maybe things are just fine in some folks eyes but I see a potential issue particularlly in the J division which includes AX Hydro and I plan to be a pain in the a** about it via the Commission to keep the kids safe................

Just A THOUGHT

MATT...........

PS..........In my opinion Brian runs well under control even though he looks on the edge (which is in my view a cool thing).

[fitsracing]

Stong agreement with Scott Reed.

Matt if you are concerned with your child's set up don't let them move up a class. You are the parent. Also don't restrict anyone else who doesn't share your views.

[ryan_4z]

Matt, I have to disagree with you on the reason for this so called "problem". It is entirely because of the tuck, not how far the motor is moved in. When you tuck under this much, the torpedo and prop are driving the back of the boat up. Which means that in rough water, when the boat is spilling air, the nose drops,but the prop is still driving the back up, which is were the problem comes in.

But I dont think that this setup alone is responsible. I have noticed that a lot more drivers are putting there fins as far to the outside of the sponson as possible. Dad used to do this. He stopped when he corkscrewed an ASH in the straightaway. When the fin is out that far, it is more likely to pull the boat down in the straightaway. Offset cockpits only magnify this. So what is to make us believe that these flips were all caused by this setup. There could have been any number of different factors. The fact of the matter is that boats flip in all different classes, for all different reasons. I have seen nothing to make me beleive that this setup makes ASH any more dangerous than any other class. And I have certainly not seen anything that should lead to this sort of unprecedented rule change.

[Mike 41P]

trying to legislate good sense

I have always know how to make my setups go just a little faster and at the same time loose safe control of my boat. I don't do it. I gage for myself what is safe to handle.

I think this is the province of each individual. I don't think APBA should be responsible for this level of detail. This will just lead down a path of more and more complicate and convoluted regulation.

What really bothers me is that we seem to be talking a lot about the J-classes where it is the parent setting up their child in an unsafe manner. These kids may be too ineperienced to communiate what they feel in the boat - or maybe some parents don't listen even if they do. Don't we read about this in other kid sports and child entertainers. Parents using the child's success for their own ego boost DO risk their physical safety in our sport.

It will be awful sad if APBA J-class has to pass rules to protect the kids from their parents.

[ricochet112]

Try It Yourself Ed

Ed and Matt, Instead of overreacting, drive an ASH kicked under 1" and decide for yourself. How can you make a decision based on speculation. I heard the top 5 finishers in NY in ASH were all tucked way under, were there alot of crashes at Whittney Point? With our ASH kicked under 1" I have way more control than I ever had in 25SSH (Matt you should remember what a handfull 25SSH was). If APBA over regulates with too many rules we'll loose alot more membership to the wildcats. Yes safety is more important than numbers, but just because someone said thier ASH was a handfull doesn't mean they all are. When your riding the bullet, prop selection is KEY!

112R

[hydroplay]

Dean,

I've been busy this weekend with 3 hockey games on Fri night and Sat and on Sun we drove to Chicago and saw Andrew Tate play. But your guess on the Berghauer/Palmquist ASH similarities was right, both used B&H boats. Just finishing up our new OSY boat and will start testing this weekend at level. No height limits, no kick in limits, no weight limits, let's just go have fun!

[csh12M]

Hydroplay

I think Sam after reading everyones post.....that as Dana said the cat is out of the bag on this one, and their is really no good way to get it back it. I think if we did go to 3/4" people would still tuck a ton, try and pull a huge wheel and be in worse shape.....I am sure innovative boat builders such as yourself will continue to drive design in a manner to handle the setup better.

I am sure Bill will fly in OSY400, Donny Jr. beat me pretty easy in it at Big Rapids we both had GPS in the boat and I went over .5MPH better. However, when we got to the turn he was long gone......it did not help that he weaseled the inside on me both heats (here come the young guns) Their is about a 60lbs difference in our rigs, and you were really able to see the weight effect in the turns!

I know you guys can run very high also.....watch out in OSY400 Hemp will be moving!

Later,
12