Hydro Tuck-under

[sponsonhead]

Not to get into the fray alittle late but isn't there already rules in the rule book concerning unsafe rigs? I don't have my rule book on me but I know the Inspector (and maybe the Ref but not sure) can rule a rig "unseaworthy".
Now if this truely was the problem some say, and I have no idea if it is or isn't, couldn't each inspector call the entire class (and as Dave said, let's not kid ourselves that it is an "A" issue. There are many a class that are doing this) or one boat to inspection and rule it "unseaworthy" and have it beached until changes are made.

That being said, I would guess that it is now up to our Refs & Inspectors (who are over worked already but here is another slice for their plates) to work together to evaluate and rule on rig preformance and comb out those that are deamed "unsafe".

So, I guess if you break loose too often in one heat, you better not do it twice or you could get beached.

Just a thought.

Brian 10s

My point exactly. Some would argue that guns are unsafe too, but we don't ban them, we throw the bad guys in jail (at least I hear they do that in Indiana). Right on, Brian.

R-19

R-19

[hydroplay]

My observations from this year, mostly in mid-west so don't feel slighted P. Gleason. Fast guys included Hauenstein, Palmquist, DeFebo, Tate, Keylard. I know those guys run the set ups being discussed and all have flipped this year in essentially single boat crashes except for Tate. Running kicked in 1 1/4 inches or more takes a unique boat to work with the transom lift the kicked-in prop/gearcase produces. That's all well and good most of the time but occasionally something screws up which usually allows the bow to drop and then things get exciting. Obviously this is more likely to happen on windy/rough conditions, particularly the downwind direction. I know Tate will change to kick out and go down in those conditions which is probably why he stays upright.

We run a boat very similar to Tate's and Palmquist but a bit heavier in front. I've limited our set-ups to 5/8- 3/4 inch in and we can run in any condition, maybe not as fast but certainly safely.

I personally feel that the transom height rules were instituted by do-gooders because they like rules and administration rather than having a referee go up to a guy and make him take out shims for the second heat. Kind of like the zero tolerance rules that get kids kicked out of school for having an orange squirt gun or an asprin. Yes, some guys broke loose before, but breaking loose is usually not catastrophic. It has taken 15 years for boat design, set-ups and propeller technology to get the current ASH boats at least as safe/unsafe as the 1985 Merc powered ones.

I don't see a rule about kick-in being feasible, too hard to measure with the varing distances behind the boat of the gearcase. If I were in charge, I'd go back to no transom heights and let the designs migrate to good, stable set ups. Berghauer killed all the A Hydros the last year of the Mercs and no transom height, even starting last one heat at the Nationals just for something to do and he was totally stable and able to go through and pass everyone. Good set-ups take testing and experience and sometimes compromises are necessary. The key is to work with your equipment, know its strengths and weaknesses and then drive it to maximize the strengths and try to stay out of the weak areas.

Trivia question: What do Berghauer's 1985 and Palmquist's 2004 ASH rigs have in common?

[bfitz]

I agree with sponson-guy....this is reaaaaally stupid....if you can hold onto it drive it, if you can't you'll crash..and maybe learn.....please stop referring to NASCAR...Nascar team- $9million or more operating budget per year and real race vehicles....hydroplane racing budget; whatever you have left over after you pay your bills........I won't comment on the vehicles....
guys, IT' S A HOBBY!!!!!

[Matt Dagostino]

Two Wrecks!!!

I have seen 2 ASH wrecks this year in my travels that were in my opinion directly related to the torpedo being shoved way under the bottom of the boats............... These were "experienced" drivers and they are running over the edge to keep up with Jones so to speak. The prop makers are willing and are making wild looking high rake cleaver propellers to accomodate these radical setups and push these rigs along!

This is not a speed issue but a "safety Handling" issue. I am not so concerned with the speed as I am the handling in any class! The only reason those drivers wern't hurt is possibly racing luck. Maybe they won't be so 'lucky' next time.

I am not trying to be a stick in the mud but rather keep the playing field level and equally important 'safe'.

lets see what happens at the National Meeting on this one.........

MATT

PS..........I have proposed to the J Class committee that they outlaw this practice in J Class which now includes AXSH,AXSR,JH,JR............FYI.

[hydroracer25]

You know it takes a lot to get me involved but.....

All,

I've been watching the subject at hand for a few years and thinking that in general the ASHs over the last few years are very unsafe due to the amount of tuck they run. Some of the straightaway wrecks that I can remember over the last few years, which I believe are a direct result of the "extreme tuck" are:

Ron France (sorry Patrick it hasn't been perfect in 15 years): at least once (at Franklin) and possibly twice, as well as Lock Haven

John Webster: twice in one weekend, and basically caused him to quit racing.

These are both experienced drivers and both are/were running "extreme tuck" set-ups.

Others this year:

Jared Rykse: not positive this was due to the tuck, but definitely in the straightaway.

Andrew Tate (yes Sam, he did crash): at Constantine in the backstretch and at the Nationals after the finish line.

Two very experienced drivers, two young good drivers. This is where the problem lies. To really go fast and win you have to have this set-up and when veteran drivers are running it, others feel they must to if they are to be competitive. With 'A' being the next class in line after J we are putting our younger less experienced drivers at risk. So just don't run it, right? (as Sam mentioned). No offense to Bill or Sam, but they are not dominating the class and I commend Sam for not letting his son run that set-up. If you don't run the "tuck set-up" you may not be running near the top and what is more discouraging to a young driver out of J? Do they quit or run the tuck set-up?

This may be taking it a little too far, but I've talked to a few veteran drivers that run "the set-up" and say that if you are out in front it isn't bad, but get behind even 1 or 2 boats and you can't drive it and I've seen proof of Palmquist getting behind and finishing darn near last in a 12 boat field.

I don't have the answer, but would be very curious to know how many of the ASH accidents (which APBA should have record of) happened in the straightaway. I would bet that if everyone would be honest about there set-up the vast majority would be running 1/2" + of tuck in there rig.

We are cir***venting a rule that was passed to keep our entry level classes safe (as stated by Mr. Hearn and pointed out my Mr. Holt that it is very obvious). So who/why did we make it 1-3/8" back in 1986? Why not 1/2" or 3/4". If we had, would we be talking about this now? Would racers still be tucking to extremes to cir***vent that restriction?

My opinion is that something should be done to keep our racers as safe as possible without the requirement to win being a set-up that is un-safe.

Mark

[hydroracer25]

One more while I'm at it

Bfitz,
What will you tell your kid when they want to win in ASH?

1) "Son/Daughter, I don't want you to get hurt, so we're not going to race a set-up with 3/4" tuck."

OR

2) "Hang on and drive it or you'll wreck and learn"

I hope if it's #2 to he/she doesn't get hurt. Yes, it's a hobby because we don't make money, but almost everyone wants to win that has an ounce of competitive bone in their body.

I hope if it's #1 they don't get frustrated and want to quit.

Mark

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

1960 apba rule book

I as a watcher been everwhere seen ever thang can only say oldonsaregonakillityoungunsaregonnalettum. Can'tkeep makin' them boats smaller cause we keep makin dem kids american.

[csh12M]

What's the answer Sam?

They are both B&H's.....

I agree with Mark and Sams post entirely. Why are we at 1 3/8 wouldn't 1/2 or 3/4 be enough. I know you prefer bottom of the boat Sam, however I do think that 1/2 saves a lot of unsafe people from themselves.

Later,
12

[modracer7b]

Solution?????

How about changing where we measure the height?? If we measured the height at the front of the lower unit instead of the prop shaft, the tuck advantage would be eliminated. Another method could be to measure the height at the highest point of the seam where the lower unit attaches to the tower housing. We would only need to recalculate the measurement needed to measure at a different point. I think the seam would be best as it would control the measurement in both the front and rear of the lower unit. In classes with multiple engines, the dimension could be different for the different engines to keep the basic prop shaft height equal.

Of course, we then would have to make sure their was a dimension in place to insure that nobody could shorten the lower unit height between the prop shaft and the unit mounting face.


- Bill Rosado

[Brian10s]

Mark and Dean,
While I agree with both your posts, you have left 1 thing out of you thought process.

This is not just an A problem. I have seen the same amount of tuck in other classes, even those that have the 1/2 height rule, 20SSH being a prime example. So I have 2 questions back to you:

If it this amount of tuck is unsafe for the A's why not everyone else?

If the other classes are doing it at 1/2 below the bottom, why wouldn't the A's just do it again at 1/2 below the bottom?

Just some thoughts,
Brian 10s

[Matt Dagostino]

Tuck en run................

Sam,Bob, Johnny,Shannon etc..... would have to comment here but I don't believe the transom height is the issue bur rather where the torpedo is located. This is a "Handling" issue not a speed issue. The A/J Hot Rod gear case is a great unit when set at a sane position. Shoving it under the bottom of the boat now makes it a unmanageable ride for most of the drivers.

Simply legislate the tip of the unit must be so many inches clear from the furthest point of the boat bottom(Maybe 2' or so). This should be done accross the board (remember David Hootons DSH at Hinton years ago) as to prevent others from jumping on the bandwagon.

I am glad Mark commented on the transitional aspect of ASH for our up and coming J drivers. This is obviously my motivation here since I have a very competitive daughter wanting to move up. I would like her to be in a competitive but reasonably safe ride and no matter how Sam and some of the boys try to "spin" it I just don't see that happening given the way the torpedo set up is continuing to head.

Mr Chairman, do what you want but your at a crossroads on this one.......

Give Sam credit for again being innovative and winning........I have no problem pushing the envelope...............but now its your turn to push it back and give Sam something to come up with for next season.

Not a sermon......just a thought

How bout them **** Yankees last night!!

MATT

[hydroplay]

Matt, don't give me credit for moving the gearcase closer to the boat, my desire has always been to go the other direction. When I started racing and boat building, a Sid-Craft was popular and typical of most boats. They had the motor very close to the boat and had a semicircular cut out in the bottom for gearcase clearance. In that era we saw plenty of barrel-rolls in the corners and blow overs in the straightaways.

In the ensuing years, designs changed, assisted by prop technology and full-length, narrow airtraps so that motors moved back, center of gravity in the boat moved back, boats needed less lift. The net result is that blowovers are very rare compared to years ago and the boats are much more stable.

Then came the curve ball of transom heights. It took awhile to adapt and figure out the nuances but simply put boats ride at a certain angle ot attack. That angle is essential to understand that moving the motor forward up that angle will get the propeller out of the water even though the prop shaft is the same distance from the bottom. The kick-in only amplifies moving the propeller/gearcase forward. You may think the issue is gearcase placement but gearcase placement is only a result of the transom height. Essentially we have had to undo some of the good features we learned before to solve the problem of going fast with a transom height limit and as a result, we have gained back some of the instabilities we eliminated before.

Transom heights in hydros is certainly misguided overkill. We went from an A hydro where it was common to have the propshaft even with the bottom down to 1 3/8 inch below. But now they tell us if we run a Mercury in A, it is "safe" to run at 3/4 inch yet both motors use exactly the same gearcase and nearly identical props. But that same Mercury is unsafe to run at 3/4 inch if we race AXS. Tell me there was objective testing done to substantiate that 1 3/8 inch is safe and 1 1/4 is not.

[jsilvestri]

I can't speak for you A drivers, but I know running tuck with my Yamatos, on the 20ssH, CSH and CSR, causes the boat to handle horribly. It could be the combination of my boats and props, either way, I decided I did not like the way the boats handles when tucked, so I set them back to parallel and the handling came back. This only took one test run to figure out for me. Currently, I've been building and buying boats that have more transom angle to move the front of the gearcase back from the bottom of the boat. This has helped the handling and with the Yamato, helped them keep pumping water. My philosophy is that you must finish the race in order to have any chance of winning. Just my experiences.

[sponsonhead]

Is that the same rig that went completely out of control and almost took out a field of about ten ASHs at DePue while Bittu Spedding was driving it? That never struck me as a stable ride and certainly convinced us that the radical setups wouldn't be fun to drive. As it turns out, they aren't.

Perhaps we should get rid of the height rule to make ASH more safe.

MAH
4D

It was indeed the same rig that Bittu raced. Since I wasn't at the Depue race you mentioned, it's hard for me to understand the context of his problem. Maybe it was water or weather conditions, an off day for him or some other intangible that caused that to happen. So I can't really comment on the incident you speak of.

What I can comment on is the fact that when we ran the same rig, we NEVER had an accident with that particular boat, and Kyle could drive it under control in the Evil J PRO Hydro class where we ran well under A Stock weight. Sam is right (as usual ) about boat being a factor; we were fortunate to have an excellent boat that Shanon built (in fact it was the reason we went with a Bezoat in C as well). But the boat was raceable both in competition as well as in the Kilos, where it went through with the normal, tucked comp setup clocked at over 58 mph--without any breaking loose.

Kyle sometimes lurks here on the Board--maybe he'll see this and talk about it first hand (that is if we can get him away from the WSU game today).

Again--if there's a problem, deal with it on an individual, or case by case basis. We seem to be getting a little "rule happy" these days....

R-19

PS--Bill Boyes is 100% correct with his assessment of kicking being needed on our style of Bezoat C. If we run it level, it won't stay on the water. Even at 3/8" kicked in it was a bit of a handful. It wasn't until Kyle locked in at 5/8" that he felt like the boat was "right". Point being here that all boats are different. Put a rule in place limiting tuck and someone will figure out how to get around it (10 guesses as to who

[Matt Dagostino]

Interesting J Tuck note.

In J class several of us tried to move the gearcace closer to the boat bottom and found that due to the nature of the J Class universal propellers that the boats would't plane. We ultimatly started moving the unit further back to the point where the boat would now plane given the current propellers in use.

That is a fine line in the J Class and we have concluded that you do go faster if you can get the unit closer to the bottom. But thankfully in J you are restricted in a sense due to the props............which in the end is a good thing!

Putting a restriction on this measurement would be easy and would give back the handling and level playing field Joe refers to. We all want to go fast but we also need to be under control..............

MATT........

PS...... Sorry Sam. I guess I should have given Young Palmquist credit for this one. But I know somehow your in the loop!!