Cost/Coverage Compariosns-APBA-NBRA-AOF

[Dennis Crews]

Connie: As usual, when you provide people information about insurance, you do not give them all of the information and you provide it in a misleading manner.

APBA's policy provides $5 Million in coverage per accident. That is very different from NBRA's $1 Million per year or AOF's $2 Million per year. The significance is only important if the racing organization has more than one claim per year. Under APBA's policy there is NO LIMIT on the amount of coverage for multiple claims. The limit is only per claim and it is $5 million.

I have never seen NBRA's policy. But I did review AOF's policy about a decade ago and it only provided liability for officers and directors of the AOF, NOT ALL MEMBERS. So it would be important to let everyone know if AOF (and NBRA) have only an officers-and-directors policy or, rather, whether it is like APBA's and it covers ALL MEMBERS!

It is important to know that APBA switched from American Specialty 4 years ago to K&K because American Specialty proposed to switch APBA from a per claim aggregate to a per period (or per year) aggregate. The APBA President at the time decided to switch to K&K in order to keep the yearly limit at an unlimited amount and which raised the per claim limit to $5 Million.

So it is extremely misleading to simply present a "factual statement" that APBA offers $5Million, NBRA offers $1Million and AOF offers $2 Million in insurance coverage without telling people that NBRA's and AOF's limits are for THE WHOLE YEAR; APBA's limit is for EACH CLAIM!



Eddie.

Once again we have misinformation about insurance. I am certain this is not intentional but I would encourage everyone to verify any information before posting it here. I am not an NBRA officer so I would refer anyone with questions to contact an NBRA officer for details but I have in my hand, right now, the K&K Event Liability Benefit Summary for the NBRA policy and I quote "The NBRA Master Event Liability Program provides General Liability coverage with a limit of $1,000,000 EACH OCCURRENCE WITH NO AGGREGATE for NBRA sanctioned events"

There is no aggregate per event and since the coverage provides up to $1,000,000 per incident with no limit to the number of claims per event, there cannot be a $1,000,000 annual limit. I have also verified my understanding of this via a telephone conversation with a representative of Hawk Race Consultants who provides the K&K policy to NBRA

Much like you Ed this is not an attempt to take issue with any one person or organization. This is nothing more than an attempt to clarify the issue and to provide accurate information.

[YankeeRacing]

Dennis, Thank you for the information. I know I have not seen an NBRA policy so your help is appreciated. As I said in the beginning, I am only taking what I can collect. I got information on the APBA website and generalized it for the chart. For NBRA I used what was posted by the President of NBRA, and I called Carl Staron, the Executive Director of AOF directly.
I can change the chart very easily and again, a disclaimer, that it is not scientific or even accurate. These are just numbers taken from various resources.
So, it still seems that the $5 mill should remain on the chart for APBA. Ed talked like a lawyer for a minute and explained how it is per policy, not year now. You will have to read his post to understand it, I can't.
And now Dennis tells us that the NBRA policy is $1 million per incident per year with any amount of claims up to 1 million. That is quite astounding. So, 20 claims up to one million? Pretty darn good if I am understanding.
I called Carl this morning and he said again, 2 mill per race, but you can buy more policies per race. So if you buy the regular, it would be 2 claims of 1 million.
Now, remember, the above is all for spectator liability only. Each place you race has it's own rules and regulations about how much insurance is needed. My guess is that if you are out in the middle of an orange grove as in Lake Placid, Florida, that the 2 million would be just fine, justifying the cheaper costs. And, I am pretty sure if you have five million dollars or 1 million, the lawyers are going to sue only for what they can get.What is the saying lawyers use? "Can't get blood from a turnip".
Most of us racers don't care about that anyway.
The medical coverage per driver is basically what we care about. According to what Ed said, APBA is still up to $20,000 per driver after your own inurace pays. Jeff Ruth said NBRA is up to $100,000 per driver, no deductibles. AOF has a Hospital Trust Fund that pays $2000 and then askes for donations. I have not been privy to the AOF Hostpital Trust Fund information since I retired several years ago so I have no idea how much money is in it. Carl has not recieved the treasury yet from Jay Roesner or Russ Bircher, former AOF Executive Director. The incorporation papers say that this money can only be touched for accidents, so I am assuming ther is still a lot of money in it, as there are not that many accidents. $25 from each membership is to be put into that kitty and not touched. Quite frankly, since I did not get this information from Russ Bircher, my family quit racing AOF. Each racer should and must feel comfortable with their sanctioning body. Carl assures me that under his jurisdiction, AOF will now be run per the incorporation and the rules of the Hospital Trust Fund. I can trust that. He also asures me that the proper forms will be included to cover the racers, not just the officers, which has not been done the last few years under Russ Bircher (that I know of).
So, now we are down to the issue of costs. Ed made a good point that it is unbelievable that APBA can charge as little as it does owning a building, paying all those people, and everything else it does.
No one is arguing this fact.
NBRA has a few more costs, and if the costs are ok, then if there is not enough money to run an APBA race, then by all mans, one should look at NBRA.
And, if even less money is available, or if you just want to, AOF is a great opportunity at a grass roots level. Carl doesn't get paid and there is not office or Hall of Champions dinner. The Federation says a club should do the formal stuff.
There is no right or wrong here. Each organization brings forth their good points and their bad ones. It is just a shame that some races are left to die becasue of loyalty to one organization or another. This is where the minds should be opened, and hopefully can be by the chart. In my opinion, sometimes it just makes sense to put on an APBA race, NBRA race or an AOF race.
Heck, make the Hall of Champions dinner even bigger. Keep separate points for each organization, and give smaller trophies for the high point NBRA and AOF champs. These people can wear tux's too. And pretty much they are the same peolple anyway. There aren't that many boat racers out there anymore.

[YankeeRacing]

Updated Chart

Here is the updated chart. Apparantly the Spectator Liability Section of the chart sparked debate. No debat needed. Spectator liability section taken out as this is executive, not what the normal racer is concerned about. Plus, we don't have enough air space to compare the policies for spectator liability. My theory is: If the local Park, river, marina, etc. allows you to race,t here must be enough coverage. KISS

This chart is black and white. No favoritism or loyalty. Each org has it's good point and each it's not so good. Every club needs to decide how to run a race.
Cost Comparison:
*More accurate information is welcome.
APBA (RED), NBRA (Green), Original AOF (BLUE)
Here are the comparisons that I could gather. These figures and this information is NOT scientific and this information is not guaranteed accurate. This is my interpretation only, and not to be taken as gospel!. I obtained information from these sources:
APBA: Website (http://www.apba-racing.com/Forms/200...%20Summary.pdf), and Ed Hearn on Hydroracer.
NBRA: From statements made on Hydroracer by President Jeff Ruth and member Dennis Crews.. Link is: http://www.hydroracer.net/forums/sho...919#post150919

AOF (Original), from calling the Executive Director, Carl Staron

APBA NBRA Original AOF
Sanction Cost Sanction: $400-$500 event Sanction: $100 per day-$200 week-end $0 Sanction Waived for 2010
Insurance Cost $2073 $1015 (Possibility of $500 off that cost) $250 +/-
Membership Fees $235 +/- $80 $75 ($25 X 3 payments)
Driver Medical Coverage Up to $20,000 $100,000 $2000 plus donations
Total (Insurance/sanction/ambulance ($500)/extras ($500)) Average per week end
APBA = $3873
NBRA = $2215
AOF = $1250

Average Entry fees @ $25
Number of Entries per week-end needed to break even (approximate):
APBA- 154 or 78 per day
NBRA- 88 or 44 per day
AOF- 50 or 25 per day

[Jack Stotts]

Just to put the medical costs in perspective my little back injury at the Winter Nationals last year was 30K just for the procedure on my back. So the more coverage for personal injury the better. Jack

[Dave M]

Thanks Connie

The perspective you showed was a fantastic approach to cost structures. I hope they are accurate. if not, some lawyer might come after you for slander.... who knows.

As for Hall of Champions, and all that, I think each org has its own version of this at their own National Meetings. not to take away what Fred Miller does for the APBA HOC, he talks it up real good and puts on a good show for it.

The only drawback I see from this information being posted on this public forum is now everyone knows the pricing and coverages. One organization might very well try to canibalize the coverage and drive up costs for another. Lets hope not.

Also, it is not a fair comparrison of APBA to NBRA. NBRA is about kneel down outboard racing of the Mod and Stock variety. APBA has lots of other categories to help offset the costs. And these other catgories do in fact drive the APBA for profits made. Since everyone wants to point of differences, I thought I would toss that one out too.

Truthfully, I don't care which one you race with. As long as it fair and fun.

[YankeeRacing]

Truthfully, I don't care which one you race with. As long as it fair and fun.[/QUOTE]

Amen, Dave,
And again, I can't guarantee facts, I just cut and pasted what was already written.
To summarize, I see:
AOF, cheapest rates
NBRA, best deal on medical coverage for drivers
APBA, best amenities

What is really surprising, and what I hope i broght to this thread is the cost of doing business for a club. No one needs to gripe when the price of entries rise. Throw this in their face if they do. I am not sure how the clubs are doing it these days.