Live From Seattle - APBA Meeting

[Dave M]

Agreed

Don,

Couldn't agree with you more. But this is where the great debate starts...."which classes?". the question was already asked by Kev no sooner than I could read your post. No one wants to make the tough decision. No one wants to see their equipment relegated to collector's items. Everyone circles the wagons around their respective position and fights to protect it.
At some time, a hard decision is going to have to be made and some people are going to feel pain as a result.

Nate

It is a tough decision, so I say let the most hated and feared Chairman make the decision. Or someone with big shoulders who can take some heat and not worry about what others think of their decision. You can't make everyone happy.

I think even the Mod class structure could use some tweaking. Stock.... won't even begin to touch that one, how many classes do they have ? 14 J/A classes, And i don't know one Yamato from the other. Especially at the race courses that they race a little ways out from you.

Lets see, you buy a CSH hull...... it is rated to run in both 20SSH/CSH and most likley BMH and 25MH. Sounds like a class to me.

25XSH.... I can identify with this class, it has a 25HP engine on it with 25 stickers..... But those Yamatos run it too, but at least I know what is out there.

I won't even begin to analyze the A and J classes........ To many to count there.

You see the point yet ?

[csh2z]

Nate,
The now defunct Stock Outboard Steering Committee did step up. We made a reasonable plan to begin streamlining our class structure. Available, new motors are going to help somewhat but that is just the begining. Right now, with membership down, is the best time to rebuild our category. Currently, our program is not easily marketable. This is the sort of stuff we should be discussing at our National meetings.

[Big Don]

Good question and I don’t have the answer. I do not want to hear anything about this next comment because I’m just pointing it out. It’s certainly tougher now that we put the Sidewinder in 7 classes. If we do want to reduce the number of classes we need to act fast. Can you imagine cutting a class that someone dropped 4500.00 on an engine 4500.00 on a new boat and a 1000.00’s on new props that their class is gone. Think they would stick around?

Someone said something very similar to this in the J meeting… about having a plan and knowing where we wanted to end up before voting on an issue. I think that conversation needs/needed to happen in stock also. I truly believe we have too many classes. We don’t do enough of it in Stock Outboard. (knowing where we want to end up) I guess one could argue that is what we tried to do with the steering committee. Look how well that went over.

Agree with Dana…set a number and stick to it. Drop below that number and the class goes on probation. Improve the numbers or the class is combined with another class so they have so place to race if it’s feasible.

I would be willing to pay 12.00/15.00 per heat, 36.00 -45.00 per class. Just to get the conversation started. Maybe more. I can afford increased entry fee’s for another heat a lot more than I can afford to go out and buy another 10,000.00 rig.

[14J]

I would be willing to pay 12.00/15.00 per heat, 36.00 -45.00 per class. Just to get the conversation started. Maybe more. I can afford increased entry fee’s for another heat a lot more than I can afford to go out and buy another 10,000.00 rig.

I would agree. An extra 10k-20k tied up in class #2, maybe class #3. Now I need a bigger trailer, bigger tow vehicle, more gas, etc. Reduce these costs for me and I'll pay the registration $$.

[BP125V]

Difficult task

Nate,
The now defunct Stock Outboard Steering Committee did step up. We made a reasonable plan to begin streamlining our class structure. Available, new motors are going to help somewhat but that is just the begining. Right now, with membership down, is the best time to rebuild our category. Currently, our program is not easily marketable. This is the sort of stuff we should be discussing at our National meetings.

John,

I think that a lot of people had a difficult time buying into what the steering committee was trying do for the simple reason of who gets left holding the bag? In general I agreed with the over all concept that the steering committee was promoting, the problem I had was that I could not see how we were going to get from here to there in practical terms.

As an example - MRC has had several opportunities to put on a short race program so we could have time for other activities. We went into the planning phase with the intention of running 8 or 9 classes instead of the 13 or 14 that we normally run. We had lists of the drivers who we thought would be there and what classes they ran and we started creating scenarios / schedules by dropping classes. Guess what? On our lists we started by dropping the 3 boat classes and some of the 4 boat classes and not only do you gurantee that that person would not show up (meaning less help for judge's stand, turn boats, etc) but odds are that their family won't show up either. Then not only do you loose the entry and help from the first driver but you loose at a minimum the help from their family as well and possibly other entries in classes you are going to run. Needless to say we dropped that plan and ran our usual full schedule.

Personally, in an ideal world, I would like to see us race 3 or 4 heats per class per day, and of course less classes per day. But how do we get there? I do not know how to cut the clases but I do know that we can start getting more seat time for some classes.

Funny thing about this sport. Locally I've been trying to get BSOA / MRC to let the J's run three heats per day. The kids are the future of the sport, they need the seat time, want to keep them interested in the sport etc etc are all reasons for wanting to do this. We had enough time in the schedule at the events I proposed this, no problem. I heard some say that the J's are too slow and would be boring for the spectators and others just said no thanks. Never did do it. Guess I'll try again this year. Another oddity: We run some classes 3 times in 2 days. We've even done this at races where after 2 entries per day the third entry fee is at a very reduced rate or even free - not everyone runs that 3rd race. Bottom line is that we are all WAY too stuck in our old ways of thinking about things. 2 heats, 3 laps per heat !!! anymore than that and I might wear out / wreck my good equipment before the Nationals ! ha ha. Hate to admit it but I think that way too.

Having just thought of this as I'm typing. I think the leadership in this sport from the chair, to the commissioners, to the club leaders need to acknowledge that lack of seat time is a definite barrier to getting people into racing and keep them racing and that we need to start forcing the issue. Pick a class or two and let them run three heats per race. Let's get the ball rolling here.

This from the Regattas section of the 2010 rulebook:
10. The race for each class shall consist of up to three (3) heats. The maximum number of boats competing in any heat shall be determined by the
Referee after consulting with the racing Commissioners present. SO and MO classes, the maximum number of boats allowed to participate in any closed
course heat shall not exceed twelve (12); this twelve (12) boat maximum does not apply to marathon races. Due consideration shall be given to safety at
the particular course. The maximum number of boats need not be the same for every class.

This is the rule, am I missing something here? anything in the rule book stopping a club from running 3 heats per race as long as it is on the sanction?

Bill

[14J]

We have to run so many classes in order for clubs to survive

What does it cost to run your everyday local race? 2k-3k?

Class Numbers = Entries = $$

Maybe we should be of the mindset that 2k-3k is not an unreasonable amount to cover through local event sponsorships. Takes work though.

[forshey99]

steering committee

Nate,
The now defunct Stock Outboard Steering Committee did step up. We made a reasonable plan to begin streamlining our class structure. Available, new motors are going to help somewhat but that is just the begining. Right now, with membership down, is the best time to rebuild our category. Currently, our program is not easily marketable. This is the sort of stuff we should be discussing at our National meetings.

John,
I realize the steering committee had good intentions. In my opinion, the steering committee was plagued by "perceived" ulterior motives(Runne=Sidewinder), which ultimately defeated its purpose. That is not a knock on yourself, Rich, or Ed as I have been outright about my support for the Sidewinder project. But, the pulse of posts on HR was that anything the steering committee did was somehow a diabolical move in SW's ultimate plan for world domination... Ridiculous...yes, I know.

As for entry fees, I echo Don's comment that I'd be happy to pay 3x entry fee than have to put another rig together. The maintenance cost savings alone of managing several boats/motors would be more than enough to pay the extra entry fee.

Just rip the band-aid off and restructure the classes. It will only hurt for a while. We will get over it.

It seems we have 2 scenarios.
(1) Try not to offend the current fringe membership in hopes that they stay...in which case they will always be looking for the next reason to leave.
(2) Change our philosophy in hopes of making a marketable and attractive motorsport option for the thousands of families whose names boat racing has never known.

Nate

[Kev43V]

It is a tough decision, so I say let the most hated and feared Chairman make the decision. Or someone with big shoulders who can take some heat and not worry about what others think of their decision. You can't make everyone happy.

I think even the Mod class structure could use some tweaking. Stock.... won't even begin to touch that one, how many classes do they have ? 14 J/A classes, And i don't know one Yamato from the other. Especially at the race courses that they race a little ways out from you.

Lets see, you buy a CSH hull...... it is rated to run in both 20SSH/CSH and most likley BMH and 25MH. Sounds like a class to me.

25XSH.... I can identify with this class, it has a 25HP engine on it with 25 stickers..... But those Yamatos run it too, but at least I know what is out there.

I won't even begin to analyze the A and J classes........ To many to count there.

You see the point yet ?

for what is probably the thousandth time J is not in stock. there are only 2 A classes (as it should be) J well... J is J, take it up with the J committee. but I will state that J is working so terribly (sarcasm) that the OPC and Inboards have added it to their schedules.

[blueskyracer]

I think the costs are a little higher than thought. If I remember right APBA insurance for an event is about $3,000. Then you have the ambulance which will range from $500 to $1000, awards ?? fuel for tow vehicles to bring equipment, corner boat fuel, sanction fees ?? and the list goes on. This is just for one event. OUCH

But I agree the classes need to be cut down. Our club only has about 10 classes at an event so everybody gets to run 3 heats a day which give more time on the water and yet we still have a lot of time in the afternoon to visit and work on our boats for the next day. Nobody has a problem paying more for water time. Makes the trip worth while.

If someone shows up with a one boat class than we bump them up so they can still run but it takes up no extra time of the schedule.

[BP125V]

3 heats per class

My previous post was too long so I will summarize. While we are trying to figure out the correct way to cut classes, we need to start running 3 heats per class per day now, at least for some classes. Local clubs can decide which classes this makes the most sense for. Heck, even do it for the same entry fee. If your club / region has more than one race per year rotate the classes that get the extra heat.

any objections?

Bill

[Brian10s]

I would be willing to pay 12.00/15.00 per heat, 36.00 -45.00 per class. Just to get the conversation started. Maybe more. I can afford increased entry fee’s for another heat a lot more than I can afford to go out and buy another 10,000.00 rig.

Don,
$12/ 15 per heat is about what most are paying currently and everyone says we have too many classes, the day is too long and we do not get enough boat time. In order to have the same amount of total cash, if you cut the number of classes in 1/2, then the entries fee's must double. $24/30 per heat.

What does it cost to run your everyday local race? 2k-3k?

Class Numbers = Entries = $$

Maybe we should be of the mindset that 2k-3k is not an unreasonable amount to cover through local event sponsorships. Takes work though.

Troy,
Sanction & insurance = $2400
Additional =$1000 (includes gas to get club stuff to site, ambulance, water rental, etc) The additional is different for every club and every site but that should be a good guess.

So at $3400, you need 136 entries ($25 per) before the club make a dollar. And that dollar profit usually goes into their savings for repairs and/ or purchases of new equipment.

[Kev43V]

Good question and I don’t have the answer. I do not want to hear anything about this next comment because I’m just pointing it out. It’s certainly tougher now that we put the Sidewinder in 7 classes. If we do want to reduce the number of classes we need to act fast. Can you imagine cutting a class that someone dropped 4500.00 on an engine 4500.00 on a new boat and a 1000.00’s on new props that their class is gone. Think they would stick around?

Someone said something very similar to this in the J meeting… about having a plan and knowing where we wanted to end up before voting on an issue. I think that conversation needs/needed to happen in stock also. I truly believe we have too many classes. We don’t do enough of it in Stock Outboard. (knowing where we want to end up) I guess one could argue that is what we tried to do with the steering committee. Look how well that went over.

Very good point
Agree with Dana…set a number and stick to it. Drop below that number and the class goes on probation. Improve the numbers or the class is combined with another class so they have so place to race if it’s feasible.
this may probably be one of the best suggestions i have heard. it certainly give those with a vested interest in a class the incentive they need to get other drivers in boats and on the water in those classes


I would be willing to pay 12.00/15.00 per heat, 36.00 -45.00 per class. Just to get the conversation started. Maybe more. I can afford increased entry fee’s for another heat a lot more than I can afford to go out and buy another 10,000.00 rig.

another very good point

[Kev43V]

Troy, Don is not wrong in this. He is saying keep the cost per heat the same but run more heats. it equates to the same money in entry fees.

[B Walker]

You can only run 3 heats per day and charge the same amount per entry if you can run those 3 heats in the same amount of time that it takes to run 2 heats currently.

Good luck with that.

BW

[Howie Nichols]

What does it cost to run your everyday local race? 2k-3k?

Class Numbers = Entries = $$

Maybe we should be of the mindset that 2k-3k is not an unreasonable amount to cover through local event sponsorships. Takes work though.

The cost of putting on a local club event is about 6k.

Sanction - 450
Insurance - 2600
Ambulance - 100/hr x 6 hrs/day - 1200
Porta a potty - ??
Hotel rooms for officials - 75/night x 2 night per x 5 officials - 750

Plus if you pay any more of your officials expenses...

SO, call it 6k average ---- 100 boats = $60 entry just to break even (weekend cost)($30/day)