Sidewinder "Disclaimer" and Thoughts

[pav225]

I probably should have posted this before any previous posts. For not doing so, I apologize to the folks at Sidewinder.

I think the team at Sidewinder (Selewach and Runne and others) have done an incredible job producing a great racing motor. I honestly believe that it is amazing to see a few guys do what would take a huge team to do at a "traditional" outboard manufacturer. Well done!

My concern has been, and continues to be, that some folks are pushing to get motors approved for 2010 because current motors are "too old", we will gain more racers with new motors, or simply to support Sidewinder's business. All of these have been backed by emotional stories and comments but no real facts or evidence.

Our family has been racing for many years and the fact remains that in order to get people started, someone needs to "take them under their wing" let them go for a test ride and then help them buy a rig. I have seen our Region grow in recent years because we have been able to get people interested in racing and then put them in innexpensive used rigs. Sure, we are very fortunate to have folks like Chicago Paul, my brother, Dean S, Mark M, and others in the Midwest support these efforts, but the fact remains that it takes effort and willingness to put people in boats to help grow the sport, not necessary the ability to buy new equipment. I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice to be able to buy a new rig, just that it has not helped, or hindered, us getting people started.

I feel very strongly about the success the Midwest has had and would be happy to compare it with any other part of the country. The majority of the new folks are now racing Yamatos because they are innexpensive and very reliable (even if they are 30 years old).

I recently asked for thoughts on how to support Sidewinder's business. I am sure they have made a significant investment in this business and I truly want to support it in a responsible manner. One way is to help sell more of the Approved motor(s). Surprisingly, most of the folks arguing to Approve the motor in more classes did not offer suggestions. That is concerning. Why aren't we pursuing a "standard" boat/rig? Or getting support from APBA like OPC is doing for their new class??? Lets put some of this arguing energy into selling efforts.

Finally, I think it is absolutely crazy that the SORC would consider any new motors without test data from multiple sources. Over the last few months I have asked numerous times for any test results on the 20 cubic inch Sidewinder. I understand it is a very tuneable engine, but don't we have a responsibility to introduce it so that it will run speeds close to Y302s and Y80s in one of APBA's largest and most competitive classes? Don't we have a responsibility to really consider how it will impact a class that currently has 2 motors running competively against each other?? I think the team would have a lot more buy-in if there was a least some understanding of how fast it will run. The old Hot Rods ran 70 MPH. That would kill the 20ssH class! Why is this information so secretive?

While it may not seem like it from some of my posts I honestly do support the efforts of the folks at Sidewinder and wish them a very successful future. I do support Stock Outboard racing first, if that is not healthy Sidewinder cannot be healthy.


- Mike Pavlick

[reed28n]

Posting

Mike,

We can tell from your post that you certainly have left all of your emotion on the sideline.

Hydro Racer is not the forum that Racing Outboard has chosen to participate on and I am sure that if you take the time to call Ed Runne directly or Ron Selawach you will get whatever information they have available.

No one is hiding anything from you. I enjoy the debates about the sport we all love. I am a 3rd generation racer and weathered the storm of leaving or sport for several years to finish college and marry. Region 2 was virtually dead. We started running our old motors at swap meets and the Clayton Antique Raceboat Regatta.

There was no one in our area to take us under their wing after being out of the sport. Sure we new some basics but the landscape of the sport had totally changed. We had to start from scratch and we started with a Hot Rod because my Dad race B runabout and that is what I wanted to race.

No one was there to tell me we had to drive 8 hours to get to a race to find 2 BSR's. APBA didn't have good information. Not until we chased our tail for 3 or 4 seasons did we figure out where to get what we needed. We learned the hard way. We have a garage full of broken Hot Rod parts and spent thousands. By all rights we should have quit. 302's were just making a splash on the East Coast in CSR with Criag Bowman leading the charge and we met Bob Goller to help with Yamato 80's and 102's.

Scott Clark was sold a 25SSH rig around the same to start and there were no 25's in the East in those days.

Fast forward to present day. We still haven't been able to effectively streamline the info that people attracted to our sport get. But, we have a New D class engine, a 302 currently in production, a 15 Cubic inch sidewinder currently, new Mercury's for J all in production and legal for racing. And we got Chicago Paul.

In 1993 there was one racing motor currently in production Yamato 302.

Racing families that never stopped racing or had a member of their family that never stopped racing have idled along and I envy you. But think for a minute. Where would you start if you had to start all over again........

That is why new motors by a private company are so appealing. You can get the stuff ready to race.

I am a supporter of the sidewinder project. But I am not a spokesman for them. Anyone that visits this site can call Ed or Ron. Just pick up the phone. Once the SORC decides what they want to do with each motor than Racing Outboard will know what they can print in their advertising and get their own message out.

So Mike pick up the phone and get it from the source......

[pav225]

Scott,
Nothing real emotional in my post, just observations about what has worked to get folks started in racing in the Midwest. The fact is that cheap Yamatos have been a big part of that growth.

I will give Ron a call to get more information on the SW motors... I may even volunteer to be a test monkey!

Our comments are probably not making Stock Outboard too appealing to potential new racers (or current racers). Going forward I'll try to give you more calls than posts. I'll PM you my number.

Time to go build new boats so I can post those pics!

Later,
Mike

[drbyrne55]

I have picked up the phone and called Ron, Rich and Ed because of the concerns mentioned. All three were very informative and helpful. We had great conversation, nothing secretive. I don't think it is proper to release my conversations with them here on HR. If I said it is my understanding that the SD20 20SSH is running 65 .... would that help. If I said the boat is handling great because of the gear case and lighter engine, would that help? Not sure it would. Please pick up the phone call them. HR may not be the forum they choose to participate in.

[MGallagher]

Scott,

25ssh is not a national class regardless of its resurgence in the past 5 years. To put the 20ci there would be "settling" and I strongly believe that would be a mistake at this point. Aggressive legislation is the only way to go now a days(ask Washington DC). All the stats and data will be delivered at the national meeting, I'm sure of it. From there, the only way to go for the long term good of the sport would be to place the 20ci in BSH and send it to the parity committee.

Respectfully,
Matt

Hey you want to try a GOOD boat next year!

[mike ross]

Matt have you got the Wild Ones cheer down yet? Or do I have to lead it when all these things get approved. Mikey

[14J]

Scott,

From there, the only way to go for the long term good of the sport would be to place the 20ci in BSH and send it to the parity committee.

Matt,

I'm curious, why do you think we need the 20ci in the BSH/20 class? The class has the 302 which is a new and available motor. Do you feel we need (2) new motors in this class?

Not attacking, just trying to understand your position.

I personally don't feel that "the long term good of the sport" would be significantly impacted by having another motor in this particular class. In fact I think what’s best for the sport is this model: Buy a 302, a restrictor, a few props, and run it in CSH and 20SSH. One rig more water time.

Now the A is a different conversation. This is where I believe we need a new motor.

Troy

[14J]

for the long term good of the sport would be to place the 20ci in BSH and send it to the parity committee.

Parity

I don’t believe in it nor do I think it helps us. If there is a need in a particular class and we choose to introduce a new motor that motor should be the dominate motor. If not don’t bother introducing it. In my simple mind, which by the way Region 7 despises, this does two things. It allows the outdated equipment to continue to run, keeps people on the water in a time of transition, and at the same time protects the new guys interest by driving him to equipment that is new, available, and capable of winning.

[Matt Dagostino]

Parity Committee?

Scott,
From there, the only way to go for the long term good of the sport would be to place the 20ci in BSH and send it to the parity committee

In reading the rulebook it appears on page 60 that the only parity committee in existance is for the DSH class.

Matt

[Matt Dagostino]

Troy..................

Parity

I don’t believe in it nor do I think it helps us. If there is a need in a particular class and we choose to introduce a new motor that motor should be the dominate motor. If not don’t bother introducing it. In my simple mind, which by the way Region 7 despises, this does two things. It allows the outdated equipment to continue to run, keeps people on the water in a time of transition, and at the same time protects the new guys interest by driving him to equipment that is new, available, and capable of winning.

As past Chairman Reed would say "welcome to the dark side". I knew you had it in you!! I bet those Region 7 cheese heads will show you some love now!!

The Captain

[BP125V]

hold on now!

As past Chairman Reed would say "welcome to the dark side". I knew you had it in you!! I bet those Region 7 cheese heads will show you some love now!!

The Captain

wait a second. don't lump us all in with the cheese heads from Wisconsin - we have Hoosiers and FIB's here in region 7 too.

Bill

[drbyrne55]

[QUOTE=14J;148726]Matt,

I'm curious, why do you think we need the 20ci in the BSH/20 class? The class has the 302 which is a new and available motor. Do you feel we need (2) new motors in this class?

Not attacking, just trying to understand your position.

I personally don't feel that "the long term good of the sport" would be significantly impacted by having another motor in this particular class. In fact I think what’s best for the sport is this model: Buy a 302, a restrictor, a few props, and run it in CSH and 20SSH. One rig more water time.

Now the A is a different conversation. This is where I believe we need a new motor.

Our take on it:

I would say Region 10 has a few of the fastest 20 hydros in the country running restricted 302's. Records are starting to fall to 302's (on 1.25 and 1.66 mile), sounds good right? Reality, shorten the course, the data results posted on HR indicate that the Y80 has faster lap times. Yes, we like the ease/expense of having a Y302 CSH and placing a restrictor plate and running 20SSH which we will continue running with the 302.

We find it a FUN challenge to run against the Allen's, Pavlick's and the other fast Y80 20's. We would also find it a FUN (and interesting) challenge either to run against the SW20 which may include us buying one and running it against our own 302's.

I believe the SW20 will more closely race as the Y80 performs. I don't see the harm in allowing the SD20 as long as there is a parity committee observing results. Here in Region 10, I'm not sure it matters if your exchanging paint with a Y80, Y302, SD20 ..... it will be a FUN run to and through the first turn.

Not sure how having two currently available engines will hurt 20SSH as most will buy a CSH Y302 because they can also race 20SSH. People starting with 20 may want a 302 knowing they can eventually run CSH. But there may be some with Sidewinder A/15 stuff that want also race 20 by changing boats and power heads. And some may just want a SW.

Maybe allowing the SW20 into 20SSH will actually grow the class into CSH numbers.

Just another point of view.

[seanp3]

Also, keep in mind it was not the original intent of the 302 to run restricted for the 20SSH class. This was done as a parity issue, which has been great and has helped the numbers for this class (correct me if I'm wrong). Regardless, I would also like to see the SW20 legal for this year in 20. Once legal I will be one of the first in line to order one

[MGallagher]

Troy,

You also have to think that this might help the classes numbers. The SW20 is 25 lbs. lighter than a Y80 and 30 lbs lighter than a Y302. You can finally race BSH!

I understand the concern for introducing the SW20 to a already highly competitive national class. However, Mr. Marketing, would you want your product placed in a class, 25SSH, that has two, maybe three regions in which it is competed in.

What I feel is happening here, is that people are not considering that this is our company too. What ever happens to this company and however this company is treated is how we determine the future of the sport in the long term.

So, the A and 15 are hear and are selling, now the big boy motor is hear and we want to sideline it until we feel that we won't hurt our sport. The comparisons of the past are useless, there were thousands of members back than. Now there are a little over 400 members and 2 of them are trying to help the sport continue the way we all like it, with high performance, reliable, light, motors.

For God's Sake, the only way to do this is to place the motor where it needs to be for optimal success, BSH and BSR.

[14J]

Troy,

You also have to think that this might help the classes numbers. The SW20 is 25 lbs. lighter than a Y80 and 30 lbs lighter than a Y302. You can finally race BSH!

This could have a positive impact if the weight is kept at 400, lower than that you can throw this argument out. I've done the math and I am fat.

I understand the concern for introducing the SW20 to a already highly competitive national class. However, Mr. Marketing, would you want your product placed in a class, 25SSH, that has two, maybe three regions in which it is competed in.

Mr. I Didn't Read Troy's post, I never said it should be postioned in the 25 class. In fact I questioned it's need in the B soon to be 20 again class. However it makes me think would a new motor help 25 nationally?


As a supporter of Racing Outboards I'm going to take a risk with this next statement and share with you what I believe most racers feel (I could be wrong).........

Since you've asked me to put my "Mr. Marketing" hat on I would say it probably would have helped if the introduction of the 15ci went a little smoother. The fact is there's a perception around this motor and I'm not sure we can label it a success yet and now we're being asked to approve (2) additional motors. As a marketer wouldn't you make sure product #1 was well received by the consumer and generating a revenue stream prior to launching #2, #3, etc.?

I do believe the A is proven and ready and you can pitch it but I don't think that of the 20ci especially in the hydro class. I would hate to see that project suffer the same political fate as the current 15ci.