J & AX Topics

[Team B&H]

Years ago i heard people say that we needed transom height limits to prevent "extreme" set ups. Well now we have transom heights and people still complain about "extreme" setups. I don't know how that can be when the transom heights were initiated to eliminate them? I also like Bill's idea of a test time but then not allowing any redos of the start if Boy A or Girl B can't plane off. But I also know that just because you can plane off with a nice cold motor, it doesn't mean that it works exactly the same way once the motor is warm. But now those parents should know that as well!

Putting the thermostat back in the motor is a bad idea. Until the thermostst opens, the exhaust side of the top piston gets no cooling water. This is fine in a fishing motor where the motor is generally lightly loaded when started but in our racing application, we go from initial start to wide open throttle and above red line RPMs almost immediately. We ran our first J motor that way the first year (2000) and saw the effects which is why the thermostat is now allowed to be removed. You don't see a thermostat in any of our other racing motors, do you?

I also feel that the class needs a performance level suitable for 11-12 year old drivers with several years of experience. If a 9 year old rookie can't compete at that level, he will be able to with more experience. But it looked to me that young Sweeney made it seem easy.

[ram95]

Merc 15-plug it up

Once the Merc T-stat housing area has been effectively plugged it is not a simple matter to remove the plugging!

While it might sound like a good idea to change the J rules regarding this area, but if the AX or A rules let it run plugged, it's going to be a pain, plus the motor won't be competitive un-plugged. Best that the rule stays the way it's written.

As for J's getting on plane. I'd like to see how it would affect things if the motor had to run at 2 inches. Would this solve ( like really put-to-bed) the problem of 'not-getting on plane'. More testing time at the races does not seem to be the solution. And how about getting rid of the 'tuck' limitation on J, AX, and A?

[Fast Jack]

J issues

Matt, Have you talked to Butch about running the J prop deeper? His input should be considered first . Jack has run J for 2 seasons and has been able to get on plane every time that we have run the Merc. He also wants to go faster !! This is one reason we are building a new K pro boat. I dont think we need to slow down the J class for the new drivers. Some kids with past experiance are ready to run up front in the first year. Others learn as they go along. Jack had been running at antique meets for 3 seasons , first with a 3 hp then a Wizzard 12 on a 25 ss boat. I have been to races where other kids first ride was to the first turn. Lets keep this RACING!!

[csh12M]

Wellings

I spent two years helping out a J rookie. I now understand the frustration parents have been talking about for the last 10 yeas. Our two years taught us this simple fact about the J setup. The closer you can get the torpedo to the back of the boat, the faster you are. This is assuming you have already plugged the thermostat housing, because you have no chance if you don't do that. So it seems simple, build a boat that puts the torpedo 3.5" from the back of the boat. We did this for year one and ran well. Year two my driver gains 35lbs, now he can not plane off the setup with the torpedo that close. It took us half a season to learn that one, so we shim the motor back a 1/2 inch and finally we can plane off, but we lose 3/4 to 1 full MPH. The lighter your driver is the closer they can put the torpedo to the back of the boat the heaver he gets the more you have to start shimming it back to plane, thus losing speed.

If we made a dimension from the Torpedo to the back of the boat, I think we would fix a ton of these issues. Make a 5" go no go gauge. The farther back the torpedo is from the back of the boat the easier it is to plane. Sweeney made it look easy, but I predict it will be harder and harder for him as he grows, because of the weight setup issue.

[Steve Warnock]

J Transoms

Dean and all!

B&H mentioned the 4" set up and it worked very well. When Rach started with the Hawks the transom angles accidently placed it at the 4" sweat spot. Fortunately we new this before we got the Keylard. This is a good rule of thumb for just about all boat makes. I'm sure B&H has a newer version of this engineering philosophy!!!

FYI!

Warbs

[Richard Hearn]

Dean does make a good point. The lighter J drivers definitely have an advantage in the setup. An easier way to accomplish the same thing is to just raise the weight by 20 lbs. Tori is 13 yrs old and a skinny little bean. She is already 15 lbs over weight in the J (and we run carbon fiber boats to keep them light). If you raise the weight, people will automatically move the torpedo back to plane off and then you don't have to have another arbitrary setup rule with new gauges, etc... It will also put the light drivers on par with the heavier drivers.

Hopefully the J Committee is reading these posts before their meeting...

[Fast Jack]

The rules are fine ... fix your boat.

Most of the races I go to have a limited # of J boats, most of the boats get on plane and run . If there is a problem with a set up ----fix the boat ,. Dont change the class rules because of a few drivers having a problem . If people would test as much as the ***** and moan we would no be trying to fix rules( that are not broken). ITS CALLED RACING.

[Jim Sweeney]

J weights

I am in total agreement with richard on this one, we need to raise the weight on J classes across the board. Only undersized kids can run competitivly past the age of 11, if you're over 115 its almost imposible to run close to weight. this causes J parents to either spend ungodly amounts on lighter boats or move them up in class before they are ready. Also, I've been reading these posts with intrest, let me tell you that Logan and our family worked our asses off all year to achieve what he did, it was never easy, and to say so only undermines his accomplishments.

Jim Sweeney

[Richard Hearn]

Logan Sweeney - Increase J weight by 20 lbs

Jim,

I don't think anyone here is trying to diminish that which you and your family accomplished in 2009. Logan making it into the Hall of Champions as a Rookie is nothing short of amazing. I heard stories of you setting up a course in your backyard to teach Logan the flags and moves! Awesome! Here's a quote titled "The Penalty of Leadership" that I think addresses why the Sweeney name comes up in these posts...

"In every field of human endeavor, he that is first must perpetually live in the white glare of publicity. In art, in music, in industry, the reward and punishment are always the same. The reward is widespread recognition; the punishment, fierce denial and detraction. The leader is assailed because he is the leader, and the effort to equal him is merely added proof of that leadership. Failing to equal or excel, the follower seeks to depreciate and to destroy - but only confirms once more the superiority of that which he strives to supplant. If the leader truly leads, he remains the leader. That which is good or great makes itself known, no matter how loud the clamor of denial. That which deserves to lives - lives."

Congrats to Logan an your family for your 2009 season!

As much as the increased weight will serve to hurt Grant (he's very light), I think it makes sense for the J class to raise weight by 20 lbs to put heavier drivers on par with the lighter ones, and reduce the cost (light carbon fiber boats are very expensive). It will also make the class more competitive (which is ultimately why I want my kids racing - to compete) as more drivers can run up front (heavier ones), and might slow the class down a bit (which I'm generally NOT for, but some here certainly are...).

Richard

[csh12M]

J setup thoughts

Fast Jack you don't get it.

It is not a boat design question, it is not a set up issue, it is not a testing issue, it is the reality of the class. Not only does a heavy driver get penalized for carrying the additional weight his set up gets penalized as well. This is not conjecture or debatable it is fact. With a height restricted class the closer you move the prop to the back of the boat the more RPM you can squeak out, and faster you go. However, moving closer to the back of the boat in J makes planing off difficult. Our second year driver went from 115 lbs to 135lbs, putting him about 20lbs over weight. That's it, game over, we had to shim the motor back 1/2 to plane consistently regardless of APBA propeller draw. This knocked .75 to 1MPH off our speed. We played with setup, more tuck to try and get closer and help plane. We even went the other way and tried a lot less, but we could not overcome the issues of moving the motor back. We were left with the decision, run mid pack in J for another year, or go to AXS. We went to AXS, probably a year sooner than we would of. I am not a complaining parent, and have absolutely no stake or horse in this game. I could care less what happens, I just am providing some feedback from the two years I helped my neighbors.

I believe that your ideal weight for a J driver is 110-120 lbs. If they are any heavier than that you have a incredibly difficult time trying to compete. Not only do you have to overcome the weight you have to try and also overcome the setup, but maybe that is fine with AXS classes to move to.

Jim, by no means when I mentioned Logan was I trying to diminish his incredible season. You deserved and earned every checked flag, and he started crazy good for his first season. I mentioned him, because I expect him to grow. Based on his family, I expect him to grow a lot! What do you think about what I have posted? If he put's on 25lbs of growth this winter do you believe that with testing and work you can maintain the speeds you have achieved and still be able to plane off at every event regardless of propeller draw?

[14-H]

J Weights

Aren't the J weights the same as they were when the Merc J60 was the only engine?

For those of you in Riolinda, the J60 weighed about 40lbs & the current Merc pushes 70lbs.

[Matt Dagostino]

Ed...................

Aren't the J weights the same as they were when the Merc J60 was the only engine?

For those of you in Riolinda, the J60 weighed about 40lbs & the current Merc pushes 70lbs.

What the heck is Riolinda? Never heard that one mentioned on Boston Legal!!

Weights are always a fun subject..............our years in J tell me the weights are fine! They are a great competitition equalizer between the older J drivers and the younger ones. Most nine and ten year olds are in the 70-80 pound range for body weight and have to add in many cases 20 pounds plus of lead! If the class weight jumps up much then these drivers will be now facing planing and handling problems!

Our J Runabout and J Hydro titles were achieved with Justin weighing in at 20 plus pounds over the mimimum weight in both classes................it actually helped us in the runabout!

What is wierd is why the J Hydro weight and the J Runabout weight are different? Most runabouts are lighter nowadays then hydros??

Ed may be right............not sure if the class weight was adjusted years ago when the 60j went away and the heavier OMC and the even heavier Merc 15 appeared on the scene.

All the set up arguments aside, boats are the least important issue in winning in J hydro and Runabout, horsepower and driver skill are where it is at!

[dholt]

Old J weights

The old 60-J weights were either 235 or 245 pounds.

I believe current J weights are 290. Working from memory.

Funny how a class that's supposed to be the simplest and easiest to work with is probably the most complex and cut throat.

Imagine some poor kid off the street and his parents who aren't born into the sport trying to figure all this crap out about how far back the motor has to be in relation to how much the driver weighs...etc...

What's that mantra of our APBA President?...."Remove the barriers to racing."

Sounds like we have one right here.

[Jim Sweeney]

J weight

Richard and Dean, sorry for the kneejerk reaction but where my 9 year old is concerned I am a little over protective. I think we are all in agreement that the J weights are out of date and that the older the J driver gets the harder it is to stay competitive. I think that this is forcing parents to move their kids into axs earlier than they want to. How many 13,14, or even 15 yr olds do you see racing J, even though the age limit is 9 to 16 yrs old. Dean you are absolutly correct, Logan unfortunatly will have a difficult time staying competive because of his weight and he will only be 10 next season.
Richard, The quote you posted was very thoughtful, somthing I will be sure to remember into the furture.

[jeff55v]

APBA J class.

I have no horses in this race. But perhaps I will get my son involved in a couple years. Perhaps.
As an outsider to the class, it just doesn't seem right that the J classes require "on plane testing". Meanwhile, we have to hurry through the rest of the race schedule to finish before dusk.
It just doesn't seem right, that a kid who planed out during their testing, but then couldn't make it on plane for the first or second heat. A kid should not have to worry about planning out. A dad should be able to pull the rope, and that boat should just pop up on plane. None of this climbing up on the deck for an entire backstrech.
Does anybody really wonder what will happen if we drop the propshaft height down? I'll tell you what will happen, the boat will plane out easier, and go slower. Not really too hard to figure out. Heck! I raced J for years at about 32mph. It was plenty fast for me. I had a great time. And it would be plenty fast for my own son too. The J class should not be about racing first and foremost. The J class should be about learning how to race safely. These are our kids out there.
What was the top speed for the 60-J's anyway?

You guys do what you want. I will be watching and considering if APBA J is worthwhile for my son.
Thanks.

P.S. I know where Riolinda is!