National meeting agenda ....

[Big Don]

...everyone keeps saying the Sidewinder is not any faster than the current engines in a class....I will be shocked if they are not winning on a regular bases by the end of 2010 season.

Think about it...every engine we have ever brought in goes faster as we all figure out set-ups and props.

As an example: from the first year we races AX with a Mercury until a year ago (4 Years) we picked up 4 MPH and that was with out the water passage being plugged.

And if any marketing program was not designed to retain it's current customers than it's flawed.

My opinon is we should have given Sidewinder the 15 class and then moved to A and other classes. It would have still given the new engine opportunity that we all want. It would have also given a faster boost to one of the classes that needed it most.

[Howie Nichols]

For the record, the motor I sold was my best, the one that won the Nationals in ASR and ASH this past season. I don't ever want to hear otherwise, I am a stand up guy. The darn inspection stickers are still on it from the Nationals! As for Howies comments, yes my equipment is pampered, many many blocks were used to get to that configuration, but a motor is only one peice to the puzzle! I've raced A for almost 12 years, I know who to go to for the best prop, strong engine, and fastest boat, I know how to start (sometimes!) and get around the racecourse fast, I straighten my bottoms regularly, THE MOTOR IS ONLY A PART OF THE FORMULA!!! A rip roaring OMC is only as good as the weakest link in the puzzle. Racing Outboards is able to secure you a stout competitive figure in the engine department of the formula. The rest is up to you... Greg

Greg,
I knew that the motor you had 4 sale would be what you said it was and you helped make my point about needing a complete package.

Quoting 26V

Howie not to "butt in" on you and kev's discussion but.... I will anyway

1.Why approve a motor for a class that had 72 participants in ASR and 103 in ASH? I dont care if someone had 1 race or 30 they are still all perticipating members of the class.
Because the current A motor is 23 years old and needs aftermarket parts to keep running.

2.Folks keep mentioning that back in 86 the SORC adopted the OMC A and people left. What happens if the Sidewinder A is adopted? Back in 86 there were alot more participants than we had last year.
Different situation Howie, when the OMC came in the KG4 was kicked out of the class. the SORC is not droping the OMC from the A class when they make the Sidewinder A legal.

3.Who knows how many blocks he had to go through to get it to run that well.
THANKS that is the perfect reason to bring the Sidewinder in. Why should we have to buy umpteen number of blocks or motors to find/ build/ tweek to get one good one?

4. What lots of people keep forgetting is the motor is only 1 facet. You must still have a good boat, a good prop, a good set up, and be able to drive to get the whole package.
Yes so lets make it so that a new racer can buy a good motor and let them work on the rest of the equation. It is very frustration to work your ass off and then finaly someone might .. maybe.. if they like you...let you know that " you know your motor just may not be strong enough"

Let me ask you this Howie, what is the Harm of making the A Sidewinder Legal? The only Harm would be if it dominated the A class next year. That would run some racers off to other classes or divisions. so far it has not Dominated at the races this year. It is running with the Good OMC's but you have to have the start to do that.



Gene,
No problem "butting in" This is a public forum. Don said it well we all have different opinions on how things should be done. This is the place we choose to share those thoughts. I hope that each Commissioner reads these posts, takes into consideration each thought and then does what his respectful regions have asked him to do since he was elected by those people, keeping in mind that he should also do what is best for boat racing.

Now to answer your questions:

1. I realize aftermarket is helping to keep the OMC alive, but thats what aftermarket is for. How many old Merc's keep on going in the MOD category because of this?

2. You are correct the OMC is not being dropped from the class, yet......

3. Because this is racing???

4. I think a new racer needs to learn. I would much rather see a person move up through the field than be able to go to the front immediately and when a situation occurs with that person out front they don't know exactly what to do and it puts them at risk as well as every one else.

The only harm I see with the Sidewinder coming in is that it will obsolete a lot of OMC people, the Sidewinder has been purposely slowed down to compete with the OMC, how long before they figure things out and begin to dominate. I agree with Don, it will be by the end of 2010.

Howie

[Kev43V]

How do you qualify many? How are we going to reach them? You talked to how many? How many were tire kickers and how many were serious racers? What class was their target? Did you find a speed range they were particularly interested in? What was their average age? Was it parents looking to get their kids into the sport or themselves? Kev, Don’t take these questions the wrong way. My point is unless you know your target customer (I know everyone is a customer) and have market research and data we are spinning our wheels. And then what are we going to do with that data. How are we going to get lets say 3000 members into our sport. Think that is crazy? 3000 out of 300 Million plus??? Is that unthinkable?

[COLOR="Blue"]]No i do not think it is out of line. Yet I think to do it in 2 years in not possible. if for no other reason the lack of boats and motors [/COLOR

Did you know that the Millennial (born after 1981) generation accounts for a third of the U.S. population, making them the largest generation ever. Granted many of them can’t afford a race boat but can and will their parents? Should we target them?

Sure! many already have or did have, other expensive hobbys

How many of them were willing to spend over 12000.00? (And that is probably low) for a new ASH rig?
4500.00 Engine
4500.00 Boat
1000.00 Saftey equipment
1050.00 3 props that may or may not work
1500.00 Trailer

Thousands of hobby stock car drivers nationwide have that much or more tied up in their hobby
I have met a few guys with more than 20g's in their RC stuff
have you priced trick bicycles? can you imagine paying over $10,000 for a bike? I can not ever see doing it but they are out there. A local shop has some in the 4-5 grand range. and thats before you get to the costum ones oops, sry, typo, custom ones

I did a down and dirty survey of 30 people that report to me here at work. I asked them to be open minded as possible and I was just looking for their thoughts. Ages 23 to 55. Both men and women. I gave them a brief understanding of our sport, several know really well what we do/race. I told them it would cost 10,000.00 to get into it. What if it were 5000.00 would that change your mind?
My question was would this be something you would even consider?

Not one person was interested or even thought they ever would be. About half of them have kids.

Price was not a factor for wanting to get into it for this group. Two guys said that 5000.00 would be easier to swallow then 10000.00. But they were not interested.
This is one of the reasons I have tried to target spectators at races as apposed to boat shows ect. They have at least some entrest in the sport to start with
Most common fear is safety. Every single mom thought I was nuts for letting my kids race.

One family races BMX bikes.

One family races go karts and said the same thing John Runne said he has heard… You drive how far to a race? We drive 30 minutes to our track and can do it any night we choose. He agreed the cost was not out of line compared to other forms of racing but he thought it was over priced for what you get. Several others thought we were nuts for driving 4 hours to race.


Yep, i hear the same thing from most of my friends.
Yet i do not think the few of us that have joined the sport in the last 5 or six years are the only people that are crazy enough to do so.

on the other hand if we can pull in those 3000 people over time. local racing could for the most part, be back. and we would not have nearly as many 6 hour drives to races


One guy drag races cars. He said it’s cool but something he would not even consider. He thought it was over priced.
ah heck Don HE doesn't even turn left. (joking)

The ones that really know what we do said stuff like… there is no way I could put the time in like you do. You work on the stuff all the time. You are gone every weekend. (So I would put all that in a time category)
most people say that about any hobby they are not doing. but it grows on you. It doesn't matter if its boat racing or Rock climbing or even PC video games online. Many people end up putting way more time into it than we can really justify, other than they love doing it .

My reason for all this post…I’m not sure…I’m not sure any of us have the right answer… I’m not sure what is right anymore…

I think you pointed out most if not all of the reasons kneel down boat racing will probably never be a Xgames event.

And that might actually be a good thing. If for no other reason than it will remain a sport people do because they love it and the people that they race with.
Problem I see is we are so close to this it’s hard to remove your self and look at it from the outside. We all have our own preconceived ideas and that makes it very difficult.
a very valid and good point

One thing I do know is we have a great bunch of people and everyone thinks they are doing what right and good for our sport. That makes it difficult to move in any direction.

I could not have said it better
Don there is no way i take offense to good "from the heart" questions such as these.

[Kev43V]

Howie[/QUOTE]

The only harm I see with the Sidewinder coming in is that it will obsolete a lot of OMC people, the Sidewinder has been purposely slowed down to compete with the OMC, how long before they figure things out and begin to dominate. I agree with Don, it will be by the end of 2010."

And if it does, then it is to fast and should be slowed down.

[Kev43V]

[QUOTE=Big Don;144988]How do you qualify many? How are we going to reach them?At boat races. we have to look at the spectators at ALL boat racing events as potential racers for all of the catagories. OPC, inboard ect. too You talked to how many? probably just over a hundred people at our BSOA/MRC races this season. well over 300 people at Kankakee How many were tire kickers most of them were just wanted a little info and will never get in a boatand how many were serious racers? that actually remains to be seen What class was their target?mostly J and A. but also B,C,D mod,stock pro, the real question I would like to find out next year is if that was because the only NEW item was the J/(maybe A) motor for sale? There were alot more questions about other classes at Kankakee but only after Fairchilds rigs were there Did you find a speed range they were particularly interested in?its good that you asked this one too. Less helpfull than i would of thought. for the most part people felt that with the boat sizes involved there were pretty sure they could not put the actual speed in to perspective of what it would be like on the water. But for some people having that handout with that info was very good thing. What was their average age?what is the average age of boat racers? I am not being a smart a$$! it was across the board from 10 year olds to people in their 60's Was it parents looking to get their kids into the sport or themselves? all of the above. One thing that many people like was the posibility that if they bought ther Kids decent stuff. Dad could go out in a class for fun even if they are not competive with the boat/motor they buy for their kid. I hated having to tell them that after the 2010 season they would not be able too unless a rule gets changedKev, Don’t take these questions the wrong way. My point is unless you know your target customer (I know everyone is a customer) and have market research and data we are spinning our wheels. And then what are we going to do with that data.

Sorry I didnt Answer these in the first post I ment to come back to them.
I also wish I was articulate as you LOL

[reed28n]

Big Don

Go back to your survey, find out how many of them would be interested if they could spend all that money buy a Mercury for their A rig and never have a chance to win.

would they spend $800 to a $1000 more approximately 10% more to have a motor that is currently in prodcution and have an equal chance to win. Oh not to mention it would be race ready. No, buy the motor, procure a gearcase, install the kit, find someone to blue print it.

Blue Print what are you talking about? I have to send my new motor where? how many packs of cigarettes do I have to send with my motor?

I think you understand my point, we need to allow these new folks an easy way to get as many components as possible. and the answer is not our second rigs or worn out motors. It is a new motor ready to go.

Peace,

Thank you to all of our service men that protect our freedom to fuss about such insignificant stuff as boat racing.

[pav225]

Merc in A

I think the bigger point is that a family can buy their kid a Merc J at age 9. In theory the kid can run it for many years to come. They can go from J-to-AXS-to-A without having to buy another motor.

I saw speeds at Yelm and the Mercs are not far off the OMCs...

- Mike

p.s. I already have a boat designed for the SideWinder.

[raceright]

ROSSI might be cheaper than Sidewinder

[14J]

I think the bigger point is that a family can buy their kid a Merc J at age 9. In theory the kid can run it for many years to come. They can go from J-to-AXS-to-A without having to buy another motor.

I saw speeds at Yelm and the Mercs are not far off the OMCs...

- Mike

p.s. I already have a boat designed for the SideWinder.

This should be the model. Same goes for 20SSH and CSH, buy a 302, a restrictor plate, and one boat. Racing 2 classes equates to water time, more bang for the buck and everyone is happy (at least I am).


Sounds like most people want to leave the Merc in the A class, has anyone kicked around the idea of a detuned Sidewinder in J? This way you can transition from J to A at no additional cost. It follows Mike's thought process...............

[Tim Weber]

Pat,

You forgot to add your virtual every race weekend burned piston and re-nicosil cost into the Rossi equation.

Sure a Sidewinder is not much different in cost with a 125 but I bet it holds together.

Tim

[hydroracer25]

not quite

ROSSI might be cheaper than Sidewinder

Pat,

I know Scott doesn't like my post pointing out the inconvenient cost / cylinder, but it's the only true equalizer (more cylinders = more parts = more cost). As Tim pointed out there are other issues such as maineanance as well.

Here are a few examples that provide some comparisons on cost:
Mercury (APBA J): $3695 (w/ racing gearcase), $220 shipping, ~$100 to shape gearcase, ~$300 (for someone like G Stillwill to "tune") = $4315 ($2158 / cylinder)
Sidewinder 15: ~ $4500 ($2250 / cylinder)
Bass "D": No idea on their cost, but guessing $6000+ ($2000+ / cylinder)

GRM 125: $5970 ($5970 / cylinder)
GRM 250: $8250 ($4125 / cylinder)
GRM 350: $9670 ($3223 / cylinder)

Our OMC "A" we bought in 1985 cost about $1750 (dealer discount) if I not mistaken. With a 3.0% increase compounded annually for 25 years (ie. 2010) the price would be about $3665. If it were 3.5% it would be $4135.

I don't think it's fair to talk about price/cost of the Sidewinder as being too much. It's in line with the cost of a Mercury "J" that has to have outside work done to it as well as the Tohatsu "D". Let's face it we've all been spoiled by the "re-built" prices of Yamatos in Stock Outboard over the years.

No one should use cost of the Sidewinder as an issue for implementation. Everyone needs to realize that SO doesn't have manufacturers beating down our doors to supply engines and we really need the Sidewinder for our future.

Mark

[Tim Small]

Rossi

Tim, I havent burned a piston in my ROSSIs in years. As Guiseppe always says, engine problems not because of bad engine, but bad mechanic.

[Kev43V]

I appologize for not previewing my reply to Don last night. I know that makes it kind of hard to follow.

[Shep]

Many issues

I have read about many issues in this thread, from motors, propellers,cost, and eroding membership. I have read about comparisons to other sports and to cost of other sports.

One of the reasons we struggle to even maintain our numbers is we are not a mainstream sport, Football, golf, auto racing, horse racing, baseball, hockey bicycle racing etc.. all are well known and publicized sports that have career opportunity. We do not. Many of these sports have similar investments to what I have spent getting into J/AX (lessons, equipment, fees, fund raisers). The time commitments are far greater for many of them.

OMC poured millions into boat racing (the V8 racing program) to promote boat racing and gave up because there was no market for it (sponsor money).

Until we figure out how to be mainstream we will continue to struggle with growth and all the rules in the world won't fix it.

Figure out what really needs to be fixed, fix it and then focus on growth.
Lots of complaining and no real answers yet.

Shep

[thepiranhabros]

By Jove! That's a great idea!

My opinon is we should have given Sidewinder the 15 class and then moved to A and other classes. It would have still given the new engine opportunity that we all want. It would have also given a faster boost to one of the classes that needed it most.

I wish I had thought of this!

Yes! Make the Sidewinder the engine of choice for 15ss. It will more-or-less be a one-engine class (what does it have for competition -- only the old Hot Rods, right?), it can be tweaked as it evolves to wring out all of its speed, and it won't make the A class any faster than it is.

Pure genius. Good thinking, Don!

Michael Mackey