The future of Merc in "J" ???

[Tim Weber]

I agree that J speeds are to high. In the good ol days a Merc 60J would do about 30. The kids were happy, happy. We need to learn from our kids it's not the speed that makes racing fun but the competition.

I would be in favor of unplugging the motors and make the motors run deep.
They would go slower and get on plane!

Tim

[thepiranhabros]

The way it should be...

About the J speeds.... We have to keep in mind that these speeds are kilo records and are actually historical TOP speeds. Not every J will go this fast! My son has been racing only a year and is 13 years old. Now- after running KPRO at the nationals, my son wants to go faster than J.....!

This is a great scenario and is exactly what I'm talking about.

Your son now has a year of J under his belt and is ready to move to the next level. AXS makes a good transition point for A when he turns 14, where he will then be most likely racing with seasoned veterans of the sport. In my opinion, your son is a textbook case of how a child should proceed, and I congratulate you for getting it right.

Your son being 13 is also older and probably more mature than, say, a nine-year old who may just be starting out in J where an ever increasing speed could become an issue.

And you are very correct to indicate that many will point to kilo and record speeds to argue that the J category is too fast. However, I am looking at this from the other side as well as I have personally seen many a J hydro running top straight-away speeds in the low 40s on the GPS at our local races.

All I'm saying is that kids (as well as J parents) should worry about getting experience first and speed later. I know this argument is 100-percent counter-intuitive to the racing attitude, but you also have to remember that we have to learn how to crawl before we can run.

Michael Mackey
21-V

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

Colin Smith's record

After a long discussion with Tom Smith (Colin's dad) I asked several questions about their accomplishment. They ran the exact same engine and boat after reassembling after the nationals tear down. They ran the exact same set up and was given a J prop out of the box for each run at the kilos.
The only thing different was Tom (very intelligently) took 15lbs out of the back of the boat and put it in the nose to prevent a blowover situation with the little guy.
Yes, he set the record at an average of 43.7 but the first pass was 44.7! The second pass was a slower 42.7 only because he went wide in the lane and went a greater distance. His gps read 44.9 for the attempt!
My whole point of this is where does this stop??? Colin just turned 10! This was accomplished after a ton of work by the two of them in only a year. How fast will they be in three years????
I hope the J commission is as concerned as I am. I thought my 28 mph Mark Four JSR was flyin'!

p.s. This is not only a J problem but a J category problem. I have heard rumors of another team hitting AXSH speeds of 56 mph!

[reed28n]

Fact or fiction?

The reason for the removal of the Merc was mostly due to the fact that the "Sidewinder Contingent" saw the engine as a threat to it's program.

For better or worse that's the bottom line as "Stone Cold Steve Austin Would Say"..................

Have a nice day

Mr. Matt,

You have left out a good bit of information that surrounded the debate. Some of the folks believe, including myself. The future availability of the Merc is not a absolute commodity. APBA approached Mercury and Mercury was very gracious to allow us to acquire motors that dealers cannot purchase in the United States. These 2 cycle motors are built for overseas markets.

With the SORC goal to have motors available into the future we did not want to send new A drivers in the direction of the Mecury that is not currently competitive and we are uncertain about the availability.

Let's assume that there is a finite number of Mercury motors available.....it is in the best interest of our sport to have those motors available for new J category drivers.

You can debate about whether you agree with this or not, but you cannot pretend to know everyone's intention. Anyone could have taken a sound bite from the meeting or from this website and given it the MSNBC spin, Captain my Captain.

With the J committee insuring that the the Mercury will dominate the J category, all three classes with have healthier supplies of available equipment with or without the Sidewinder.

[Matt Dagostino]

Mr Chairman..............

Mr. Matt,

You have left out a good bit of information that surrounded the debate. Some of the folks believe, including myself. The future availability of the Merc is not a absolute commodity. APBA approached Mercury and Mercury was very gracious to allow us to acquire motors that dealers cannot purchase in the United States. These 2 cycle motors are built for overseas markets.

With the SORC goal to have motors available into the future we did not want to send new A drivers in the direction of the Mecury that is not currently competitive and we are uncertain about the availability.

Let's assume that there is a finite number of Mercury motors available.....it is in the best interest of our sport to have those motors available for new J category drivers.

You can debate about whether you agree with this or not, but you cannot pretend to know everyone's intention. Anyone could have taken a sound bite from the meeting or from this website and given it the MSNBC spin, Captain my Captain.

With the J committee insuring that the the Mercury will dominate the J category, all three classes with have healthier supplies of available equipment with or without the Sidewinder.

I agree with you that there were several reasons that went into the commissions decision to oust the Merc 15 in the "A" class............and of course as you state you could debate it to death. That's why it is nice to have such a great forum such as Hydroracer for concerned enthuiast's to share there thoughts! In a constructive way.

No doubt the A class is a touchy subject since it is one of the largest and oldest classes in APBA racing. I would think we all agree that a replacement engine is necessary. How we get to that end is the challenge.

My opinion is we need to target 'one' motor to be the engine of choice in the class and ultimately allow only that engine. The history of our cataglory has shown that one motor classes are what works best from 'all' aspects of competition and cost.

Take good care of Troy for me and make sure he stays on his diet!!

[Team B&H]

J speeds now are not any higher than they were back in the 2 blade era when everyone planned off easy. We were the very first to attempt to run the Merc in J with a 9 year old driver who had only one race and had a larger restrictor plate than is currently used. He started in the middle of the pack at the Lock Haven race and ran away from everyone and was noticably out in fron by the first turn. We didn't have a GPS in it then because we had no expectations of how it would run. The next heat we made him start last and it took until the second turn before he was out in front. He wasn't scared and handled the speed extremely well. The next year when it was a legal motor for J, with a smaller restrictor plate, the best speed we saw was 44.3 mph at 7650 rpm but that was at Burlington WI- altitude above 800 feet, not the sea level of Devil's Lake like the new records ran. And, no, we didn't have dry tower housings or B rings or any of the other little tweeks now used to achieve that speed. We had enough to figure out just to get a carburetor work- something you all take for granted now. So J speeds have been in the same neighborhood for years, if you had the knowledge and desire to work at it and felt your kid could handle it safely. There was a dip when the 3 blade props were introduced but that gap has evaporated as current motors are better that what we ran then.

I look as a perfect example or Michelle Snyder. Her dad started her off with an older small-port block that is slower than the "legal" ones and he set her up deep so she could plane off without having to do more than move up in the cockpit. But she raced and learned. As she gained experience and confidence, he gave her the big-port block that everyone else had and then started to raise the motor. She got comfortable making the boat plane off with a set-up she never could have used last year. And then at the end of the year, she got a dry tower and was pretty competitive.

I felt my kid had the understanding and ability to go fast in J right away and Del saw thet his daughter needed some conditioning time. I feel it is up to the parent to match his kid's ability to the speed if he feels the J is "too fast". Maybe it is more than some 9 year olds can handle, but it is too slow for many 12 year olds. It is easy to slow it down to let the 9 year old gain experience but what that doesn't help the 12 year old who has 3 years experience at that speed.

[csh2z]

Where did Daren's post go? He wrote something very interesting and possibly very important.

[PopPop]

40 plus MPH is just too darn fast for a nine year old. Particularly when some of these kids are put out in a race with little or no experience. Arn't we looking to bring new people into this sport on a safe and level playing field. At these speeds we are not doing the sport any good and we are just looking for trouble. The kids did fine at 30 MPH. Just get them on plane and let them have fun.

[thepiranhabros]

...Maybe it is more than some 9 year olds can handle, but it is too slow for many 12 year olds. It is easy to slow it down to let the 9 year old gain experience but what that doesn't help the 12 year old who has 3 years experience at that speed.

This is a perfectly valid argument, and I see your point crystal clearly. My counter is that if J is too slow for a 12-year old who has the chops to handle more speed, by all means move them up to AXS. Isn't AXS supposed to be the transition class before moving to full-blown A, or am I missing something here?

Michael Mackey
21-V

[Big Don]

Michael,

That was the intent of the AX class....that it would be a stepping stone to A. But something happend to the AX class since that time. It's now going almost A speeds. In my opinion it's not the stpping stone class any longer. It's just called something different than A and in a different catagory.

[Shep]

Don't forget the boat!

One thing nobody seems to talk about is the boats. J Dad's are building boats specific for the J classes. I haven't checked to far into it, but I'll bet that most of the "fast" J Kids are in new boats that are built with J only in mind.

It boils down to the parents are working hard to get their kids winning and are making a serious investment of time and money to do it. Regardless of what rules are put in place you will always have a group that will work harder than the next to win. It is like that in ANY sport.

As a J Dad it is my responsibility to teach safety and responsibility to my child so they can handle them selves safely on the race course regardless of the speeds.

Shep

[reed28n]

Don't forget the boat!

There was a proposal to mandate a larger boat for J to improve the safety by having more boat around the driver. This would cause a slow down of speed by mass.

Along with that idea there was a recommendation to look at the sizes and designs of the boats we run in all of our classes. The thrust behind the idea was to give us the ability to run in rougher water. We would be less susceptible to windy weather conditions and give us the confidence to race in venues that were more accessible to the public.

Radical idea from a man who has traveled all over the world racing...but is it radical or common sense....

[thepiranhabros]

Michael,

That was the intent of the AX class....that it would be a stepping stone to A. But something happend to the AX class since that time. It's now going almost A speeds. In my opinion it's not the stpping stone class any longer. It's just called something different than A and in a different catagory.

Thank you, Don. I obviously was missing something by not taking into account how close in speed AXS and A are today. I appreciate you putting this into better perspective for me.

As is the case, it is my opinion that a disservice has been done to the kids in this sport by getting them going too fast too quickly, while considering their experiential learning and safety as convenient afterthoughts. Maybe it's time to reevaluate where the J category is headed, and why it needs to get there so fast.

Michael Mackey
21-V

[LarryR]

Q) Do the modifications allowed for the Mercury 15 violate the philosophy and ideals of J class?

my answer is yes. I cannot say it better than Brad said it and I think Fastjack may be understating the expertise required to make the 15 competititve. Most folks talk about sending their engine to George for "whatever", though there are alternatives for the "expert". J was once 7.2-cu.in. There is no cost effective, current choice available - or is there?

new Q> are the boats too fast for J? my answer again is Yes, especially for a light 9-year old on a windy day.

Incoming......!

[Matt Dagostino]

Modifications................

Q) Do the modifications allowed for the Mercury 15 violate the philosophy and ideals of J class?

Basic modifications to fishing engines are necessary to make racing engines!!
Since the early days of our sport basic modifications have been necessary to allow 'fishing' engines to function under racing conditions. Taking a Merc 15 designed to troll around at 2500 rpm on a fishing boat and all of a sudden be expected to run around a race course at 7000plus RPM's with no race preperation is a foolish premise!

The fact that these powerheads need to be 'clearenced', beefier rings, seals, lapping the flywheel, bearings along with solid motor mounts is basic maintenance for a production powerhead to hold up under racing conditions!

PLUGGING the motor to heat up the pipe and GO FAST to me is just plan wrong! It was wrong when the guys did it with the OMC 15 in the 1990's and i think it wrong to do it with the Merc since this goes far beyond being a 'maintenance' matter. In addition there could be long term damage done to the engine as Sam Hemp suggested in his post.

All in all the Merc 15 has shown itself to be a good little engine since it's introduction several years ago. I just hope the 'modifications' allowed to make it hold up under racing conditions are keep to a minimum and speed modifications like PLUGGING are outlawed.

As far as speed goes for the J Classes, perhaps the most effective fix to slow both the J and AX down is to drop the mandated height another 1/4"
inch. We have to remember that inspectors are swamped at local races and we need to keep them in mind when proposing rule changes. Lowering the heights of the motor is a simple fix and easily inspected!! This change would also help those weaker engines and boats that seem to constantly have problems planneing off week in and week out!

Just a thought................