cut suit certification rule?????

[mike ross]

This is another example of a rule getting passed based on a motion that was not thought out by the SORC. If they would have taken the time to get the Pro and Mod categories views. They would have gotten a good feel on how the crossovers would be effected by this rule. It probably would have never been passed. Like everyone has stated we have a rule already in place. Referee's and inspectors have the power to tell a racer there gear is worn out or not up to a safe standard. Mikey

[Dave M]

While on the Subject..

This is my opinion, bash me if you like, agree with me if you want.

Saftey is the responsibilty of each driver. It should NOT be up to a governing body to mandate saftey. We are not professional racers, we are hobbists. I feel the minute you mandate something in the name of saftey, you open up the entire membership up to legal action. If you mandate gloves, socks, or the condition of cut resistant material and it fails........ who is going to feel the pain ? Both ends. As a result the governing body will spend a lot of money to protect itself by means of insurance. Once this insurance is used a time or two, do you think it will still be a reasonable cost to keep ? This increase in premiums will be passed along to every member. Think about it, APBA recently conducted bidding for any insurance company to bid on covering APBA events. How many bids did they receive ? They received one. And they accepted it. This should tell you that it is already difficult to obtain coverage.

So is mandating these saftey things really a good idea ?

[swheeler]

I'm a Pro driver so re-certification doesn't apply to me, but it does because I have a Granddaughter that is going to start racing next year in J-Stock. But I guess it doesn't apply there either because she will have started with all new safety gear and then moved on to K-Pro before it would have been re-certified (or outgrown it).

I do want to say though, that I don't like the idea of someone with probably no more knowledge than me, telling me, what is safe for me.

All my safety gear is the new more expensive Turr-N-Lite and I wear Tuff-N-Lite cut resistant socks. I tried the Tuff-N-Lite gloves and don't feel comfortable driving the boat with gloves on. Does anyone want to force me to wear gloves, because if I'm uncomfortable driving my boat, then I'm a danger to others.

Also, I agree 100% with what Dave Mason posted earlier.

If your Granddaugther is going to be running APBA's J class the stock rule will not apply. J IS NOT part of the stock catagory. It's a catogory consisting of the J and AXS classes and is governed by a committee appointed by the board of directors.
I'm not sure what if any rules the J catagory has regarding recertification.

Now for a question of my own. What all is involved in the recertification inspection. Is it just a visual inspection or is it more complicated?

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

Let's see, I have a calculator, how much would this cost me... I started racing 16 years ago and bought two of everything then. I take very good care of my stuff (Linda drives about once every three years) and have no doubt that my stuff would pass rectification. I still don't know how much for rectifications on pants and or sleeves but let's guess at 35.00 each piece plus life jacket. That's 140.00 plus shipping per certification per set, 280.00 for two sets, three rectifications over 12 years that's 840.00 plus shipping and my stuff still looks like new.
But wait there's more... I just bought a second set for myself and plan to keep my old set so I will have a dry back up... add 420.00 plus shipping to keep that set certified. That makes my total 1260.00 plus shipping for rectification over the next 12 years or 420.00 plus shipping for three sets this year alone. WHAT!!! 400.00 plus 300.00 membership fees and 140.00 entry/ trailer fees. 840.00 just to make the first race this year?
But wait there's even more, talk of socks and gloves?, are these going to be mandatory?, how much are these going to cost?.

Going into the first turn knowing I will not get hurt because I am certifiable... priceless

[blueskyracer]

Let's see, I have a calculator, how much would this cost me... I started racing 16 years ago and bought two of everything then. I take very good care of my stuff (Linda drives about once every three years) and have no doubt that my stuff would pass rectification. I still don't know how much for rectifications on pants and or sleeves but let's guess at 35.00 each piece plus life jacket. That's 140.00 plus shipping per certification per set, 280.00 for two sets, three rectifications over 12 years that's 840.00 plus shipping and my stuff still looks like new.
But wait there's more... I just bought a second set for myself and plan to keep my old set so I will have a dry back up... add 420.00 plus shipping to keep that set certified. That makes my total 1260.00 plus shipping for rectification over the next 12 years or 420.00 plus shipping for three sets this year alone. WHAT!!! 400.00 plus 300.00 membership fees and 140.00 entry/ trailer fees. 840.00 just to make the first race this year?
But wait there's even more, talk of socks and gloves?, are these going to be mandatory?, how much are these going to cost?.

Going into the first turn knowing I will not get hurt because I am certifiable... priceless

Very good. Perfectly said! If it met the old rule and you are comfortable with your equipment then it should be good enough. I always believe in getting the best stuff and taking care of it.

I must say we have bought a lot of stuff from Daren and his stuff is always like new and top notch. He puts a lot into racing and helping new folks and is trying to help the sport but you can only have so many rules. You can over "rule" folks right out of the sport if they have thin skins or small pocket books.

[Team B&H]

I kinda like this new rule but not for the way you would probably think. Having the manufacturer certify the suit is safe puts quite a bit of liability on them if my son gets cut or injured somehow while wearing a suit that they have certified as safe. Frankly, I am surprised that Security and Lifeline have not jumped up and complained about the additional liability that was being fostered on them by this rule. Or maybe they just haven't figured that part out yet.

For those of you who have been around for awhile we had a similar situation years ago with a rule that said helmets must be Snell approved less than 10 years old. That sounded like a nice rule after all, who wants to see someone else using an old and possibly brittle helmet? I think it was a general APBA Safety Rule, not just a stock rule. Anyway, I think the legal guys saw the position this put ABPA in by implying that a Snell approved helmet less than 10 years old must be safe. Immediately after that, helmet rules were vastly liberalized by deleting the age requirement and including helmets with other than Snell approval.

[Dave M]

Good Point Sam

Sam, good point. I remember that very well. Also, thank you for clarifying where the real liability would lie. I am far from a lawyer's knowledge.

Another point similar to Sam's. Years ago APBA decided to mandate "KEVLAR" to be worn. Well some smart folks realized what this meant and it was suddenly change to "cut resistant" Technically, I could go race an APBA even with anything I myself deemed cut resistant.

I doubt any one of us could come up with a good rule that covered all the materials that would be adequate to use. Most materials have intentional uses. Most don't apply to a prop hitting you at 75MPH in the water.

At any rate, where does all this end ? Is the end in sight ? I think each racer should be responsible for their own safety. I am not in favor of useless rules such as the recertification rules stock has adopted. Somehow, these always manage to make their way into the other categories in a year or two.

[Matt Dagostino]

Good Points.................

I agree with Dave and Sam. In addition what is to say a driver who gets their Kevlar 'CERTIFIED' won't go tear it up after the first race out and stitches it back together with duct tape! Let's leave the pressure on the driver to maintain their safety equipment to the previous minimum standards and stop passing law after law to complicate our Grass Roots hobby!

ANd as far as expecting a Referee or Inspector to monitor the equpiment we wear. Jeez. Our officials are so swamped just trying to get through 50 heat days that i am sure they want no part of one more thing to look after!

Remember.............KISS. Keep it simple stupid!

[18W]

Since I was unable to attend the National meeting, maybe someone who was there can help me out here.

Was there a process or inspection procedure that was also submitted to specify what each manufacture must adhere to in recertifying our safety gear?

Or was this "the manufacture knows what they are doing and can figure it out because it is their product" decision?

[Fast Jack]

Kevlar Testing

As I remember the sales pitch at the National meeting ," Your kevlar would be visibly inspected and cleaned if necessary ". If the kevlar passed a tag would be sewn in it. There are no standard non invasive tests for the kevlar fiber after it leaves Dupont. ( That I could find.) One manufacture of chain saw chaps has a test to see how long a chain will run against their material before the saw jams. A company that makes motorcycle clothing tows a weighted sample on tar untill it burns a hole in the material.I had a hole worn compleatly through my new kevlar as it chafed against a lower unit as they hung in my trailer on a trip back from Ocoee. Most of the Items I have the Kevlar is protected or covered by nylon type material and would have to be uncovered to be tested.

[Kev43V]

lets adopt the mod rule on this. It is such a better rule than the one we went with.

[csh2z]

This will be readdressed at the national meeting. The rule as written, sucks.The bottom line issue is that some people are racing with cut suits that due to its condition may be completely ineffective in the case of an accident. The goal here, is to do the best we can to protect ourselves from possibly life threatening injuries. Without some sort of guidelines and, yes, a rule, our neglect of dealing with this issue may cost one of us our lives. Somebody has to have the authority to tell a driver that kevlars in obviously bad condition, cannot race with that cut suit. Many of us are too cheap to replace our safety equipment when it should be. I know that first hand because it was my kevlars that were used as an example at last years national meeting. Aside from the obvious repairs that I thought were needed, Pat showed me how my cut suit would have failed the ultimate test of protecting me had I been in an accident.
BTW, I did not propose this rule although I fully support the concept.

[forshey99]

What?

This is my opinion, bash me if you like, agree with me if you want.

Saftey is the responsibilty of each driver. It should NOT be up to a governing body to mandate saftey. We are not professional racers, we are hobbists. I feel the minute you mandate something in the name of saftey, you open up the entire membership up to legal action. If you mandate gloves, socks, or the condition of cut resistant material and it fails........ who is going to feel the pain ? Both ends. As a result the governing body will spend a lot of money to protect itself by means of insurance. Once this insurance is used a time or two, do you think it will still be a reasonable cost to keep ? This increase in premiums will be passed along to every member. Think about it, APBA recently conducted bidding for any insurance company to bid on covering APBA events. How many bids did they receive ? They received one. And they accepted it. This should tell you that it is already difficult to obtain coverage.

So is mandating these saftey things really a good idea ?

Insurance premiums typically increase as a result of payout on the part of the insurer, on behalf of the insured. If outboard racing can decrease the number of injuries, through the mandate of particular safety gear, then it is altogether likely that the payout for injuries will decrease and possibly stabilize premiums. The idea that the sport being less safe will help reduce concerns of insurers is beyond all logic.

[Kev43V]

John
I agree completely that the issue needed to be addressed. the original rule give no direction to the ref. of what was or was not acceptable. yet the new rule has ro refer back to the old rule when the suit integrity is in doubt. so to me that actually makes for no change other that sending your suit and money to someone.
On the other hand the Mod rule states that you are not allowed to use gear that has holes or broken zippers, or torn stitching. So therefor no one can claim the ref is "picking" on them. It does or does not meet those criteria. not maybe, or even "might" meet the rule.
it gives the referee a clear cut guide line as to what is expected to be inforced. if someone is DQed under this rule they have ONLY themselves to blame.
I for one do not like rules that are vague. It gives unscrupuless people wiggle room and at the same time makes it hard for someone that actually takes their responsabilitys serious when the rules are not clear and concise

[reed28n]

Global

This is another example of a rule getting passed based on a motion that was not thought out by the SORC. If they would have taken the time to get the Pro and Mod categories views. They would have gotten a good feel on how the crossovers would be effected by this rule. It probably would have never been passed. Like everyone has stated we have a rule already in place. Referee's and inspectors have the power to tell a racer there gear is worn out or not up to a safe standard. Mikey

Let's not throw stones here. There are a number of rules that should be cross category rules. This is something that Mark Wheeler has been trying to coordinate and it has merritt, his effort should be applauded. We all have too many rules per category and far too many rules that are slight variations of one another.

If the worst thing that comes out of the Kevlar Rule is that everyone is more aware that there is an issue we are all better for it. I believe this type of rule should be done at a higher level, we should have statistics from our insurers and act as a group (APBA).

We had input from a manufacturer and the goal was to implement a minimum standard that would improve our safety for our members.

That was the intent. If it needs work, then we need to work on it more......get your ideas to your elected commissioners that will represent you at the national meeting.