Parity: Hot Rod vs. Sidewinder

[MGallagher]

Ed- I believe you will see their(meaning Welling's and etc...) speeds increase significantly in the near future. My observations have been that the amount of time and effort put in to real time testing has increased ten fold for Racing Outboards in the past year. There are only certain things you can tweak and learn in a test tank. The ability for Ed to see and work with a local motor has helped the sidewinder figure out those small things that can be tweaked(mostly timing and carb tweaking). Also, I believe the California Sidewinders are having success with the ones they have purchased.

However, I DO believe that a combination issue is a factor as well. Prop, motor(motorman), and driver have reached peak standards in the Runne pits. These issues that have been learned this past year I'm sure will be shared to an extent to those who have sidewinders, and who knows, maybe some of those Runne racing notes already have been shared.

DISCLAIMER: This in know way is affiliated with Runne Racing or Racing Outboards LLC. In fact I will probably get in trouble for this.

[hydroracer25]

from a close distance...

I was at Dayton and watched the BSRs from a distance very closely. I agree that the runs that Greg Lyons made with the Sidewinder were very good and the engine seems to be very close. There is no doubt that they have done a lot of work and have it running very good.

I also helped Doug Wellings a little over the last couple weekends that he has raced his Sidewinder. As Doug mentioned, his Sidewinder has improved each time out. There has not been the amount of effort put into testing off the race course with Doug yet, but I'm sure once the engine (ie. carb jetting, timing...) is optimized, more improvements will be made with props and set-up.

For reference, Doug purchased my B&H last year, as well as the prop that was the fastest qualifier in BSH in 2008 (both are proven). This year my dad put together our last Stock 15ci Hot Rod and sold it to him. Doug has made great improvements in his rookie year and won the second heat of the Nationals with it. Over the last 3 years we have sold Hot Rod engines to Sidor and Tate as well. All were among the top runners at the 2009 Stock Nationals. In my opinion the Sidewinder isn't quite there yet, but I believe it is very close and with more people testing them, should improve a little more this year putting it where it needs to be.

I really believe this is the future engine for the small Stock Hydros and Runabouts in the future and would like to see more 15ci's running to build the "B" class back up.

[STEVE FRENCH]

Im just going by from what i saw on sunday in the BSH race it seemed to me that Welling's sidewinder was not as far off as you would think of Sidor's very competitive HR

Here is were ya have ta use yer head on exspectations.......Sidor's motor and Sutherlands have many years of refinement ....er...... tuning. Tim's also has win "history" that would make the Smithsonian museum .......blush.

At Franklin Tim had soooo much smoke in BSH.....(I think Butch was about to turn himself inside-out grin'n )
I think Tim had trouble git'n his helmet off when he came in....cause of the grin.

Has the Sidor/Hearn/Sutherland run-off happened this year?

Where I ....think (oxymoron) you'l see the check books open is when someone puts the "A" version in ASH vs. the OMC.

To me, in my "Pee-brain" (Charlie Fry quote) .....hydro at the "A" level, is more entry/beginner level than "B" runabout just do to the last 30 years of a lack of avail motors in B......So would'nt it be more likely to attract new racers that want a new motor that's in the hunt?......(That should draw some feedback).
Yes B has been the class that needs help and is slowly get'n there......But I gott'a believe ASH is where the ready buyers are.

"Win'n races on Sunday.....sells cars on Monday".........old car dealer say'n.

Well time ta finish load'n to "Rock the Lock".
Weather still sounds good
GREEEEEEN FLAG!!!!

100N

[kampkurz]

[QUOTE=hydroracer25;139552]
For reference, Doug purchased my B&H last year, [QUOTE]
Looking for a new one?? (Hee Hee) KampKurz

[csh2z]

Again,

Steve, there are currently 3 "A" motors on the west coast running consistantly strong against the top OMC's and 1 or 2 currently on the east coast. These people that have stepped up to buy Sidewinders will be ahead of the learning curve as far as carb set-up, props and experience.

[26V]

Parity in Sidewinders

Quote...I just don't understand how Greg's/Worm's Sidewinder runs so much better than Dudley's, Schertz's and Wellings'.

Hopefully there will be parity in the Sidewinder engines. Once that happens, I agree that very little will need to be done to the Hot Rods for overall class parity.

Greg's motor is a "production" motor. Dudley and I are running "preproduction" motors. This is part of the speed difference between Greg and myself. Another is setup and test time. I have not had any test time except during races. I am happy to say that after this season is over. My Sidewinder will be shipped to Sled and he will bring it up to the current Production motor specifications. So look out next year, you should see a major improvement in My performance.

[14-H]

The Silence is Deafening

I never got an answer to my question? Are the fast Sidewinders running a dry tower like the Mercury J/AXSs? Is that what needs to be done to them?

Let me ask some follow-ups to Gene Schertz's statment that he and Dudley have "pre-production" engines and that work will be done on them this winter by the factory.

1) How do you tell a pre-production engine from a production one?

2) What are the differences between a pre-production engine and a production one?

3) What was the issue the SORC was discussing last week about identifying Sidewinders? I was told this was a factory concern but I don't understand it.

4) How do you get a copy of the spec sheet for these engines? I am a Stock and Mod inspector and Referee and have no idea where to get one. The Stock and Mod Tech Manuals on the APBA website have no specs for these engines even though they are legal to participate in both categories and win the nationals and set records.

Thanks. Eddie.

[Dave M]

You Must Be Joking ?

There is no spec sheets or inspection sheets for it ? Is this engine able to receive points towards the high Point Championship ? Is it able to receive valuable HOC points ? If not, it definately takes away points from others chasing the dream.

I memory serves me right, the Bass Tohatsu was not eligible for a few years to receive any points or regonition other than being probationary ? There was some healthy debate on the subject.

That being said, is there any process documented in APBA that provides clear, consise actions that must be followed to add a new engine to an exisiting class ? It seems there should be one and the issues that keep geting debated here would be moot.

[14-H]

No Joke

Below is an excerpt from the 2007 Stock Inspection Manual which is the only Stock Manual available from APBA on line.

"Hot Rod Sidewinder (Class A)
The SORC has agreed to accept The New Hot Rod A Motor as a Prototype Class A
racing engine for the 2007 racing season. The SORC will be kept updated with data on
the progress of the engine.

There are no specifications available at this time, but as they become available, they will
be posted here."

The Rules for the B Stock Class, which is where the Sidewinder is currently legal, make no reference to the Sidewinder whatsoever.

The 2009 MOD manual also makes no reference to the Sidewinder but I believe that the MORC approved the Sidewinder parts as "replacement parts" for the 250 and 350 cc Mod Classes two years ago.

Add: In the Mod Category, even though the Sidewinder parts have been approved as replacement parts, The crank case would definitely be illegal since it would not meet the rotary valve timing dimensions, I'm quite sure.

[propnuts]

Need to boost sales

I've been saying for a couple years now in SORC meetings that it's going to be VERY hard to sell these things based on "one motor per class" One of the huge selling points when I bought my OMC in 1998 was that I could run it in J and A. Now you can run one in AXS as well. If you go buy a Merc now you can run it in J and AXS. If you buy a Yamato for $2700 or so you can run it in C and 20SS. To get me and a lot of other multi-classers to spend Sidewinder type money to run one class is going to be a tough pill to swallow.

Again,

Steve, there are currently 3 "A" motors on the west coast running consistantly strong against the top OMC's and 1 or 2 currently on the east coast. These people that have stepped up to buy Sidewinders will be ahead of the learning curve as far as carb set-up, props and experience.

[dholt]

You can run the same Sidewinder motor in multiple classes.

BSH/BSR
ASH/ASR

soon..20ssH/25ssR

[26V]

Quote"1) How do you tell a pre-production engine from a production one?

2) What are the differences between a pre-production engine and a production one?

3) What was the issue the SORC was discussing last week about identifying Sidewinders? I was told this was a factory concern but I don't understand it.

4) How do you get a copy of the spec sheet for these engines? I am a Stock and Mod inspector and Referee and have no idea where to get one. The Stock and Mod Tech Manuals on the APBA website have no specs for these engines even though they are legal to participate in both categories and win the nationals and set records.

Thanks. Eddie." end quote

1. there are only 3 preproduction motors that I know of. Mine, Dudleys and the one Rich ran at Pineville. the one Rich ran is the motor Racingoutboards has been using for testing.

2. Very little are far as I know. mostly it is a different carburator and jet settings.
Also some nice little features that you may have seen on the production motors at Grass Lake. Timing pointer and degree indicators on the nicely painted flywheels.

3. As there is no outword appearance difference between the 3 sidewinder motors. The SORC, Inspectors, and referee's need a good, clear and precise way to identify the 3 different Sidewinder motors. That is what the Identification descussion was about.

4. If you will notice the Stock inspection manual on the APBA web site is the 2007 version. The SORC is getting it updated with all the rule changes that have been implemented after it was writen. It is also being proof read for any typos or missed rule changes from before 2007. As soon as it is done it will be posted on the APBA web site for all to read and download. In the mean time Ed try Scott Reed.

[14J]

The spec sheets have been received and they will be in the updated tech manual (work currently in progress). They have been reviewed by chief inspectors Roger Carr and TJ and have been found to be acceptable.

That’s all I have.....

[MGallagher]

Ed- Why don't you throw it on the back of your boat and see "what's the deal!" I do feel that you really DO want this motor to be here and I also KNOW that you disagreed with the way it was/is introduced. This is a "no harm, no foul" issue. I do not believe any harm has come or will come from the introduction of this motor. As for the performance issues, they are now left up to the owners of those motors and no one else. Everything that may be an issue can, has, and will be voted on. However, for right now, I believe the motor is perfect and if you ordered one you could get it in a week and have all the notes you need to adjust and tweak the motor to your boat, prop, and driving style.

I know with your politics that "Change" is a touchy word, but this "Change(actually addition)" is GOOD. LOL!

Oh yea, as for the tower, I am 99% sure that it is NOT a dry tower.

[PopPop]

QUOTE+"I believe the motor is perfect and if you ordered one you could get it in a week and have all the notes you need to adjust and tweak the motor to your boat, prop, and driving style."END QUOTE
Yo Matt, the guy is only a lawyer. He can't just willy-nilly order a moter on a whim like the rest of us. There are over 50 different sphincters in the human body; some of these sphincters are microscopic in size.