Y-80 / Sidewinder Controversy

[wildcild95p]

i ran with a rig i purchased for $3000 ran 2nd in points and was rookie of the year with $3000 equipment.. i never have any problem running up front in 20 any race i go to with my 30+ yr old motor. i think that putting anything in the place of the 80 in 20ssh and C hdyro would ruin the classes,, and in my opinion it is the class to be racing in stock outboard if you want to run with the best,

[blueskyracer]

John,

You mis-understood what I was trying to say. You slow the old stuff down to make sure the new can't beat it.

I agree with the speed issue.

Tim

With a rule like that you would just force folks to get out or move to Mod. What help is that for Stock classes!

Also I think you meant to say "make sure the new can beat it."

[csh2z]

Earlier in the conversation, somebody (I think Mike) used the word attrition indicating a decline in popularity. That attrition has already begun in 20SSH. In the last five years, we have lost nearly 25% of 20SSH participants. Granted, it's still one of our biggest classes but at what point do we do something to turn that around? Do we wait until another 25% quit? I guess the question is, if not now (when a replacement motor is available ) when? From history, I hope we've learned that if you wait too long you end up trying to revive a class that may be dead. Look how difficult it is to grow DSH. DSH used to be our premier class! Not the biggest but always strong.

[csh12M]

20ssh

Wildcild95P, if you are who I think, you bought some of the best 20 equipment around at the time (Steve Eckerts) That is the problem with this sport, that type of equipment only becomes available very infrequently. We need motors that can compete all the time. Remember the days of the Merc. truck and OMC truck at the nationals. If you showed up at the nats and your motor was weak you could buy a powerhead right off the truck and race. I think Dana won ASH nats. with a powerhead right off the truck.

12M

[csh2z]

He is who you thought he was!

[blueskyracer]

Earlier in the conversation, somebody (I think Mike) used the word attrition indicating a decline in popularity. That attrition has already begun in 20SSH. In the last five years, we have lost nearly 25% of 20SSH participants. Granted, it's still one of our biggest classes but at what point do we do something to turn that around? Do we wait until another 25% quit? I guess the question is, if not now (when a replacement motor is available ) when? From history, I hope we've learned that if you wait too long you end up trying to revive a class that may be dead. Look how difficult it is to grow DSH. DSH used to be our premier class! Not the biggest but always strong.

John, this is so true. I know next year I need to move up a class due to winter fat that just won't go away. I still think you bring in the new motor and as it developes and becomes the motor set up to beat folks will migrate to the new. Forcing a person to change does not work. They need to see the difference and make the change on their own.

[Greenacre3M]

It looks to me like the Sidewinder is going to be the motor of the future for all the smaller stock classes. I think the Sidewinder is going to be a good motor once they get all the little things worked out, but I think APBA might be making a mistake by putting all their eggs in one basket. I remember back in the 70's when I got into racing there was alot of used motors and equipment available and getting into the sport didn't cost an arm and a leg. There were alot more boats at the races then too. Now with the new motors APBA wants to use, a new driver is looking at over $7000.00 just to get into the sport. I don't see what good this is doing for Stock outboard, the stepping stone to boatracing, especially with the economy the way it is. I think the A and 25 classes will be the first two classes we'll see a big decline in, if we keep going in the direction we're going with all the motor and class changes. I can see it definately lowering the numbers of entries at the Marathon Nationals. I'm hoping for the best for a sport my family has been around and involved in since the 50's, but we need to keep affordable used equipment and classes available for our new members wanting to get into the sport.

[Big Don]

Earlier in the conversation, somebody (I think Mike) used the word attrition indicating a decline in popularity. That attrition has already begun in 20SSH. In the last five years, we have lost nearly 25% of 20SSH participants. Granted, it's still one of our biggest classes but at what point do we do something to turn that around? Do we wait until another 25% quit? I guess the question is, if not now (when a replacement motor is available ) when? From history, I hope we've learned that if you wait too long you end up trying to revive a class that may be dead. Look how difficult it is to grow DSH. DSH used to be our premier class! Not the biggest but always strong.

And my income has gone down 20% in the past 5 years. Seems ok to me.

I'm kidding just showing that stats are just stats, they can show anything you want them to. Once again I think we need new engines but we need to be very careful. Based on that % I should not be racing. But we always find the money to go. I just don't feed the kids.

One thing I have learned over the years. You need information to back up numbers. Why did it drop 25%? Did we loose those racers? Did they go to a different class? Did they go to a different catagory? Was 20 their second class and with income loss did they drop a class? I know we don't race as many classes as we did a few years ago.

ADDED::: and just for the record if your going to throw stats around the B class numbers are the lowest in years this year. Ok let the fun start

[Mrs blueskyracer]

I think having a new engine is a great idea, and like I said before my hat is off to sidewinder.

I do not, however, think that anything should be changed with the Yamato engines, they will eventually fall by the wayside as parts are no longer available and they will become obsolete.

I say run what you have till it breaks or you want (and can afford) something new then move into a new sidewinder.

Anyone who does their homework before they buy, especially if they are just getting into the sport, (and any hopefully the seller would tell them) would know that parts are no longer available for any given engine. Heck a little research on hydroracer.net would answer all those questions for them.

From what I have read on this thread and the one titled SIDEWINDER, no one really has a problem with the new engine, infact they are glad it is available, proud that it was developed by someone associated with the sport here in the US. The concern is that it is too expensive for someone who is just trying to break into the sport of boat racing. And in this economic climate not always an option for those who are already racing.

[MGallagher]

About 15 or so years ago I used to tell friends that it was $2000 for a boat, $2000 for motor $750 for safety equipment and $250 for a prop. That was all brand new stuff except for the used OMC or Yamato. That was 15 YEARS AGO!

Our top of the line water softener in my business used to go for $1395 15 years ago, now I get $2150 for the new one!

It is what it is and thats it. We all know or all should know that Ron is not pulling much off of this motor(just my guess), considering all that goes into it.

I like that all there is to talk about is the price. We all at least know that they are running.

[nbass]

Better Transition Process Needed

The cost of building a small quantity of specialty products is very expensive. If you think it should cost less, give it a try yourself. $4,500 is very reasonable, actually I believe that is a come on price for what is costing more like $5,500. Maybe stock outboard should return to their roots and race what comes off the showroom floor then you could have your $2,000 A or B stock. And, it will slow down the racing equipment.

The problem is not the Sidewinder or the cost, it is the way the SORC manages new products, Tohatsu and Sidewinder. Mercury Marine and OMC offered products that were rejected, so they walked away. Support your manufacturers and develop a transition system that will encourage all racers. The current process looks like a big boost to the mod division.

[DeanFHobart]

Exactly

The cost of building a small quantity of specialty products is very expensive. If you think it should cost less, give it a try yourself. $4,500 is very reasonable, actually I believe that is a come on price for what is costing more like $5,500. Maybe stock outboard should return to their roots and race what comes off the showroom floor then you could have your $2,000 A or B stock. And, it will slow down the racing equipment.

The problem is not the Sidewinder or the cost, it is the way the SORC manages new products, Tohatsu and Sidewinder. Mercury Marine and OMC offered products that were rejected, so they walked away. Support your manufacturers and develop a transition system that will encourage all racers. The current process looks like a big boost to the mod division.

Neil,

Well said. You are exactly right.

[HRTV]

Why were Merc and Johnson turned away? Neil please join us over on HRTV this Thursday night for a live conversation on this hot topic.

9PM EST

[dholt]

Stock Participation

How in the heck did the Sidewinder/Yamato 80 thread get so started? And now so off course?

Anyway, here are the Stock Participation stats since 1997. These reflect participants in each class.


Stock '97 '98 '99 '00 '01 '02 '03 '04 '05 ‘06 ’07 ‘08
ASR 86 82 85 70 71 82 82 73 71 70 75 66
BSR 36 35 29 25 27 24 26 36 27 30 30 29
CSR 69 73 79 85 94 100 109 87 93 85 70 82
DSR 11 13 10 15 15 12 10 13 16 17 9 2
25SSR 16 15 26 27 29 35 54 56 72 52 47 47
ASH 105 87 97 100 94 103 105 107 97 88 91 101
BSH 32 40 29 30 31 40 29 30 26 39 32 32
CSH 112 128 141 140 117 130 129 124 141 120 130 125
DSH 37 38 35 26 31 31 37 33 42 44 50 47
25SSH 25 27 23 25 25 34 38 42 36 42 39 42
20SSH 86 92 104 106 101 115 107 111 121 98 98 98
45SST 28 24 20 25 21 18 21 22 25 24 27 22
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total: 643 654 678 674 656 723 747 734 767 709 698 693


As a side note, this year's totals are trending DOWN in all classes. Not a surpise considerding the economy.

As John Runne stated, no one is planning to obsolete the Y-80 from 20ssH.

For those upset about possibly removing the Yamato from 25ssR. Remember, those engines were only allowed in to revive a DEAD class several years ago. The band aid worked initially (see 2005), but has declined since. In 2008, 65% of 25ssR drivers competed in 3 races or LESS! Is that really a viable class? Who is being put out to pasture? People aren't racing the class as it is.

And after watching the Nationals, the unrestricted Merc 25XS is way faster than the restricted Yamatos anyway.

[dholt]

My bad, 63% of 25ssR competed in 3 races or less in 2008, not 65%.

Here's some more numbers.

Stock Outboard Class Participation
2004-2008


2004
Class Total Participants 3 Races or Less
ASR 73 30 (41%)
BSR 36 17 (47%)
CSR 87 37 (42%)
DSR 13 10 (76%)
25SSR 56 31 (55%)
ASH 107 40 (37%)
BSH 30 16 (53%)
CSH 124 56 (45%)
DSH 33 8 (24%)
25SSH 42 24 (57%)
20SSH 111 46 (41%)
45SST 23 8 (34%)



2005
Class Total Participants 3 Races or Less
ASR 72 33 (45%)
BSR 27 11 (40%)
CSR 94 37 (39%)
DSR 16 12 (75%)
25SSR 72 42 (58%)
ASH 98 31 (31%)
BSH 31 16 (51%)
CSH 141 58 (41%)
DSH 42 21 (50%)
25SSH 36 13 (36%)
20SSH 124 57 (45%)
45SST 26 8 (30%)










2006
Class Total Participants 3 Races or Less
ASR 70 31 (44%)
BSR 30 10 (30%)
CSR 85 35 (41%)
DSR 17 16 (94%)
25SSR 52 32 (61%)
ASH 88 37 (42%)
BSH 39 24 (61%)
CSH 120 48 (40%)
DSH 44 15 (34%)
25SSH 42 19 (45%)
20SSH 98 41 (41%)
45SST 24 8 (33%)


2007
Class Total Participants 3 Races or Less
ASR 75 40 (53%)
BSR 30 13 (43%)
CSR 70 32 (45%)
DSR 9 9 (100%)
25SSR 47 31 (65%)
ASH 92 29 (31%)
BSH 32 20 (62%)
CSH 130 55 (42%)
DSH 50 19 (38%)
25SSH 39 14 (35%)
20SSH 98 45 (45%)
45SST 27 11 (40%)














2008
Class Total Participants 3 Races or Less
ASR 66 29 (43%)
BSR 29 15 (51%)
CSR 82 38 (46%)
DSR 2 2 (100%)
25SSR 47 30 (63%)
ASH 101 45 (44%)
BSH 32 17 (53%)
CSH 125 45 (36%)
DSH 47 16 (34%)
25SSH 42 23 (54%)
20SSH 98 37 (37%)
45SST 22 8 (36%)