Modified outboard rule change ballot

[Brian10s]

Mr Koschka,
While I understand your reasoning, it really only reinforces my original explaination.

Proposal #2 - I understand the reballot issue because the 350MR drivers (all 12 Runabout possible votes out of 48 based on 07 APBA points) might have squed the results. And while not a DSH & CSH comparison, I would give you CSH & CSR. However, why the non Yamato engine in 350MH need a weight increase is the root question? The weight for the non yamato engines has been the same for over 15 yrs (about when the various engines were combined). So what has changed in the last 2-3 years that would warrant a increase in weight? As for fair, that I would guess be subjective. In the Runabout class, it seems several drivers using several different engines are capable of winning - thus parity. However, in the hydro class have the non yamato engines begun to dominate and this move is to rebalance parity?

Proposal #7 - I also understand and agree that the entire category should and must vote on the removal of an engine from a class. The entire Modified Community has an equal stake in the health Category. We are only as strong as our weakest link. However, it would also seem that for approximately 15 yrs, the class has grown and become stronger with the inclusion of the "non yamato" engines, especially at "Local" races where entries in every class are sometimes needed. The root question is why now is the need to remove the "non yamato" engines so urgent? And since the non yamato engine rules have been frozen from the last couple of years, what has lead to the need to rebalance parity?

And yes, I also understand that, as was done in Runabout, the direction Modified has tried to travel in the past was to roll the engines from 400MH into 350MH and then eliminate 400 class. However, in direct contrast to the 350 runabout class, (which currently runs the yamato, Merc 25SS, OMC & Merc 25XS is stock form) the hydro class is now reverting to a single engine class, only the yamato. This seems to run in contrast to the majority of Modified classes where more than 1 engine coexist.

So to summarize, I am still not sure I was incorrect in any statement.
Also, no time out for me. Just ask my Mom, I have never listened to her the way she would have wanted me to.

[STEVE FRENCH]

Bob, So after read'n the proposals and the the results intended are to be what?

Correct me please but this is my interpretation of where these ballots are to lead us?

Proposal#2
"Increase the weight of the 22 cu in OMC/Mercury engine boat combinations running in 350ccMH from 370 pounds to 395 pounds.

(BMH) 350cc Hydro to be:
20 Hot-Rod (370lbs),
20 Merc... (350 lbs)
20 Yamato.(420 lbs)
22 OMC/Merc(395 lbs)

Now if I show with a 370lb 20Hot-Rod in the (BMH) 350cc hydro class and by some stroke of luck, skill, and a smile from the Greek god of the sea (Poseidon) and a cold day below,........ my rig/driver manages to nail the start and somehow win 350cc Hydro at the MODIFIED Nationals, we will not see a weight increase proposal for the 20Hot-Rod next season.................Right?

What if a Merc/Wizard finally gits it together and wins (CMH) 500cc Hydro........?

PS would someone quote me the sentence in the rule book that states 350cc/500cc hydro ..........."are Yamato classes"......?
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Could someone also explain the future intent of this sentence in proposals #4 and #5 ?;
"Rational: This rule helps begin the process of making the 400cc class an "open" class for the smaller displacement (??????) engines. Parity between the two (2 ????) engines shall remain focus."
.............Huh?

I would suggest ya look at speed/lap times and water/wake conditions during competition and structure from there.

This whole Proposal process needs to become avail to this forum or a web cam at the meet'n and a more Democratic system of communication.
Too few with the ability/funds to attend the "meeting' are make'n policy too easily/quickly.
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Just "........paying attension........."

[94H]

Brian & all,
Where I’m not the appointed spokesperson for 350MH, I am on the commission and probably the best person to convey the feelings of the drivers and the history of the Commission meetings. I am also stupid enough to get trapped in these Hydro Racer discussions.

Brian’s earlier reply sent me to the rule book to get some facts. There is only one class in Mod and Stock which has a 50 lb engine specific weight penalty and that class is 350MH. The largest Stock weight differential is in 25SSR where the smaller Y-80 gets to weigh 35 lbs less than the larger 103 / 302 w/ restrictor. In 350MH, the larger 400cc engine gets to weigh 50 lbs less!

I also didn’t see anywhere in the rule book that says that the 350 Yamato drivers will not have any say in the class rules or that there is a timeline when a parity rule can be requested. The 350 Yamato drivers pay their dues just as you and expect the same privileges.

If you want someone to say that Ricky Miller (who is my friend) is the reason the 350 Yamato drivers are requesting a 25 lb weight increase for the 25 OMC / Merc engine, I will say that. Ricky caused the Yamato drivers to question the 50 lb weight advantage when the 350MR only allows a 25 lb advantage. When the 25 engine was introduced into the BMH class, there were agreements that parity rules will be reviewed when necessary and that time seems to be now.

To answer Brian’s question about the success of the 350MR combination ( 350 / 400 and 25XS), I will restate that the Mod commission failed to completely remove the 400MH class as proposed so there is no reason to keep the engine in both classes when it has a class of its own. Much different than 350MR

The Mod Commission is set up with two gateways to get a rules implemented. The first hurdle is the actual Commission who reviews all future proposals from the Modified drivers. If the commission feels that the request is valid and is the spirit of class progression, they allow it to go to ballot. Our commission obviously feels that the increase weight request for the 25 engine is valid.

The second hurdle is the actual driver’s vote which either allows the rule to be implemented or fail. The fate of this ballot item is now in the hands of the 350MH drivers and it will be interesting to see how many vote.

Remember that the cut-off date to post mark your return ballot is March 29th

Brian - don’t be surprised if “T Ball” stands keep appearing in your trailer or boat next year.

[sax]

The Yamato 102 comes in at 396.9cc's.......maybe a move should
be made to make this a legal motor in the 400cc classes.

[STEVE FRENCH]

The Yamato 102 comes in at 396.9cc's.......maybe a move should
be made to make this a legal motor in the 400cc classes.

Hey, The GOOD Sax!!!......

Sounds like a proposal for 2010 to me......(but doesn't it sounds like BMH as it is now?)

Good to hear from ya buddy!....

Brian & all,
Where I’m not the appointed spokesperson for 350MH, I am on the commission and probably the best person to convey the feelings of the drivers and the history of the Commission meetings. I am also stupid enough to get trapped in these Hydro Racer discussions.
.

Excellent point Bob!.........Myself being a BMH owner/driver for nearly 10 years (2)Yamato, (1)Merc 22, (3) 20 Mercs and (3)OMC 22's, and hopefully soon a 20 Hot-Rod, of which most all are still raced (depending on course,conditions, and team attitude(s))...this is also what MY frustration is about.......Having to feel ignorant/in the dark (me and a few others...)
......or stupid after the proposals come out.
When we could ALL be informed through "communication" before the ballots are mailed to the membership for vote.
.....and NO one........ FEELS....... (not accused of ....... or have'n self proclaimed feelings of being.) .....ignorant/stupid afterwords.

How can we canvass/contact every Commissioner, in each region, to find out what cards are to be presented at the National Meeting and voice our concerns to every Commissioner, prior to a proposal which affects EVERYONE in EVERY region, BEFORE the ......CLASS ALTERING (not just a single engine mod) proposal....... makes ballot?.........Seems like a monumental task to this bald, and totally gray, old boy...(Dang, that was a long breath of valuable air! )

...............

The Mod Commission is set up with two gateways to get a rules implemented. The first hurdle is the actual Commission who reviews all future proposals from the Modified drivers. If the commission feels that the request is valid and is the spirit of class progression, they allow it to go to ballot. Our commission obviously feels that the increase weight request for the 25 engine is valid.

The second hurdle is the actual driver’s vote which either allows the rule to be implemented or fail. The fate of this ballot item is now in the hands of the 350MH drivers and it will be interesting to see how many vote.

Remember that the cut-off date to post mark your return ballot is March 29th

........................

"This whole Proposal process needs to become avail to this forum or a web cam at the meet'n and a more Democratic system of communication.
Too few with the ability/funds to attend the "meeting" are make'n policy too easily/quickly."............(100N quote)

"If the commission feels that the request is valid and is the spirit of class progression,they allow it to go to ballot."

..........."Could someone also please explain the future intent of this sentence in proposals #4 and #5 ?;
"Rational: This rule helps begin the process of making the 400cc class an "open" class for the smaller displacement (??????) engines. Parity between the two (2 ????) engines shall remain focus."

PLEASE, what is the intent/reasoning/ "spirit of class progresson" of the current commission......... on the above???

Perhaps an outline of WHAT the "spirit of class progression" and/or the future desired class structures/plans of this commission OF the membership IS,....would be enlightening to the membership?
Would this information help the membership know/understand where this commission's train is heading?.....And help the entire MODIFIED OUTBOARD MEMBERSHIP decide what equipment to keep,sell,trade, or budget to acquire?
Maybe ...I'M... the "stupid" one,..... but it seems to me that it would sure be nice for the MODIFIED OUTBOARD MEMBERS of this sport, to be able to ....with focus,.....plan/budget their future MODIFIED OUTBOARD ...........choises?
EXAMPLE 1;......Future(?) updated crankcase and rods to beef up my future 20Hot-Rod, and the same for team mate Archie Lewis' current 15 Hot-Rod AMH motor from Racing Outboards Inc...are a couple of our future, team budgeted and planed, ........purchases.
Example 2; ....... Future CMH hull (new Revolution or B+H would be nice for me and for them/builder.) for my current CMH legal 4 cyl. Wizard (Merc)......Unless someone manages to come close and/or wins the CMH class this year with a 4-cyl Kiekaefer (Speel Chek) motor, and next year we have to add 25 lbs cause a (Loud) Merc won this (Yamato majoriteed and,.....so and so driver dominated?) class.....?.........(Is majoriteed a word?)

"Remember that the cut-off date to post mark your return ballot is March 29th"
".............. The fate of this ballot item is now in the hands of the 350MH drivers and it will be interesting to see how many vote."

I agree.


Apologies to those on the Commission and also to any Racer's that feel I'm being direspectfull......I understand the Commissioners are caught between a rock and a hard spot with the requests/proposals they get and the current system of communication from the Membership and maybe between other commisioners?........ (perhaps a link with Racer's license# for password to communicate with all Commissioners or some other type of "chat room" that will privately link the proposal author, and ALL.... the Commissioners and then can be presented to the membership in a pre-ballot forum???....)
Or, ....We AS the Membership can let the train run as is and hope it dosen't......WRECK?

.....and thanks to those who understand my passion about the reoccurring ballots and my personal, frustrated concern....... for the process, and need for communication to understand.................why?....(Kind'a sounds like a Jimmy Buffet ballot/song "....His search for answers to questions.....that bothered him....sooooo"...huh?)

Sincerely, and in race'n Brotherhood,
STEVE FRENCH 100N

Dang, is it 5-o'clock somewhere?.............I need a drink!....and some oxygen.......
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[swheeler]

here in newingland we don't have a 400cc class . we have to run our OMC an mercs in the 350cc class .the 400cc rigs are not as fast but its a good race. by eliminating the 400cc in 350cc we have no race . our club (eastern outboard racing club ) on the island here has 7 omc"s and 2 merc"s. I think by adding 25 lbs. we won't even be in the ball game. lets leave well enough alone. in this day and age we want to atract new drivers to a inexpensive and easy to maintain class. the 400cc class fits the bill.

I'm curious, if you have nine 400cc ( aka 25 mod) rigs in your area and the clubs don't schedule 400 mod hydro as a class, how many Yamato 80 rigs are there?

[STEVE FRENCH]

Edited my last post to include an appoligy to the Commisioners.

[swheeler]

The Yamato 102 comes in at 396.9cc's.......maybe a move should
be made to make this a legal motor in the 400cc classes.

Remember, the new class names have little to do with the actual engine displacement. A "400" is probably close to 375cc. Any way you slice it the Yamoto puts out more HP. then any other engine in the class.

I haven't seen any explaination as to why the weight increase will take effect in 30 days if approved. Please don't tell me it is for safety reasons or a matter of national security.

[Doug4N]

Looking at the numbers

I'm a little curious about the numbers, of boats that is. In 2005, there were 44 B Mod hydros that scored APBA points. In 2008 there were only 32. If you subtact the 7 non Yamato entries in 08, there were only 25. That is a decrease of at least 25% in 4 years. Seems to me that removing the 25 Mods will do nothing but help the demise of a marginally participated class.

Just my thoughts
Doug4N

[swheeler]

It's also interesting to note that on Sunday at Pineville without the 25 mods and 20 cubic in hot rods there wouldn't have been enough boats to race 350cc hydro.

[STEVE FRENCH]

It's also interesting to note that on Sunday at Pineville without the 25 mods and 20 cubic in hot rods there wouldn't have been enough boats to race 350cc hydro.

Steve,
How did they finish?......Any in the hunt?

[doc 35-0]

snow storm hits tulsa, cools spirit and our dream of testing. we need it to keep up with the 350s. Doc 0-35

[STEVE FRENCH]

Anyone have the results of all this exspelled energy.........

Would like to know what classes to test/set-up for this year.

Ice is off the lakes!

GREEEEEN FLAGGGGGGGGGG!................
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[mercguy]

Anyone have the results of all this exspelled energy.........

Would like to know what classes to test/set-up for this year.

Ice is off the lakes!

GREEEEEN FLAGGGGGGGGGG!................
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all the results are posted on the APBA website...........

[STEVE FRENCH]

Link to results http://www.apba-racing.com/NEWS009/S...ALLOTS09-2.pdf

Thank you to the 80 Racers who "paid attension" and voted on proposal # 7 ..........(too bad ya'll couldn't been heard on #2)

Interest'n how a class structure is changed "To improve parity" by 4 votes on proposal# 2............when a 22 omc/Merc never WON ............BMH.
PS.....Congrats to the author.....but what's that smoke'n hole in yer boot about?........
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Seems to this o'l boy ......... BMH just got a whole lot ....................lonely'r
Have fun chase'n .....yer "Top-Guns"

So what's in the works ("spirit of class progression") with the pass'n of proposal #5?
Rationale: This rule helps begin the process of making the 400 cc class an “open” class for the smaller
displacement engines. Parity between the two engines shall remain a focus..................
........("an “open” class for the smaller displacement engines").........................


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