175 H Roll Call

[Tom Cronk]

175h

Here is a list of drivers that will be running 175H in 2009
1-Ralph Donald 175 & 125
2-Bill Hosler 175
3-John Maddrell 175 & 125
4-Buddy Tennell 175 & 125
5-B.J. Tetro 175 & 125
6-Davy Jones 175 & 125
7-Marshall Eldredge 175 &125
8-Billy Allen 175 &125
9-Frank Weiss 175 (new)
!0-Mark Leyde 175 & 125
11-Mark Johnson (AL.) 175 & 125
12-KRISTI Ellison 175 & 125
13-Bob Wartinger 175 & 125

Hope more to join in 2009
Tom

[HRTV]

Here is a list of drivers that will be running 175H in 2009
1-Ralph Donald 175 & 125
2-Bill Hosler 175
3-John Maddrell 175 & 125
4-Buddy Tennell 175 & 125
5-B.J. Tetro 175 & 125
6-Davy Jones 175 & 125
7-Marshall Eldredge 175 &125
8-Billy Allen 175 &125
9-Frank Weiss 175 (new)
!0-Mark Leyde 175 & 125
11-Mark Johnson (AL.) 175 & 125
12-KRISTI Ellison 175 & 125
13-Bob Wartinger 175 & 125

Hope more to join in 2009
Tom

Wow 13 boats! go USTS

[Tom Cronk]

175H races

The 175H will be put on at about 4 to 5 USTS
races in 2009.Sites and dates to post at a
later date.Get those new motors ready for
next year and help grow with the class.
Tom

[Smitty]

Has anyone noticed that a comparatively cheap way to have a 175 might be to take a Yamato 250 twin, which I'm told are no longer quite competitive in their class, and re-sleeve with Yamato 350 sleeves and pistons? Presumably these would be at least as fast as the step-up 125s (and shake less).

[bill van steenwyk]

there are problems to overcome with the above solution

At first glance the resleeving of a Yamato two cyl 250 with 350 sleeves might seem to be a good idea and a relatively inexpensive way to get involved in the 175 class, BUT the following things would need to be resolved:

Cost of resleeving from one block to the other, if you are not a machinist and have to pay to have the work done. Is the OD of the 250 sleeve and the 350 sleeve the same so as to allow a no-machining fit from one to the other and if not, what will this do to the flow in the transfer ports in the 250 block when installing the larger (in ID anyway) 350 sleeves in the 250 block?

How about carbs? Would you have to buy new ones, or would the old ones work, and then the problems of jetting correctly and coming up with pistons to replace the ones you are going to stick and burn while you are figuring it out.

Same question regards pipes. Also cost of a new bracket and braces. This will NOT be a small issue, and as one who went thru this some years back when the idea of a 175 class first was broached, and I had half of a Konig 350 GIVEN to me free of charge already assembled (Dieter Konig was going to build a 175 before his untimely death in a motorized hang glider accident) I can testify that if you don't have a dyno or a place to do a lot of testing and have access to a good gas welder and a computer program for expansion chambers, you are probably always going to be behind the performance curve. If "putting" around off plane while everybody else is racing appeals to you, this is a great way to get that experience.

Add in the cost of props for an engine that probably won't be competitive anyway because of the advances in porting/squish/expansion chamber design since the time of the parent 350 Yamato engines, and you have (IMHO) a great opportunity to spend a LOT of money and not be very competitive.

You can very easily count the number of folks that do this SUCCESSFULLY on a couple of fingers of one hand, even taking a time frame over the last 20 years. You are probably going to spend more money and run not as well as if you bit the bullet and bought a VRP, or Rossi. Add in the information already available from all those engine owners about props, pipes, tuning, etc., and unless you are a very special person that the racing is more about the engineering and testing than the actual performance on the race course, you are bound to be disappointed in the long run and spend more money and effort besides. The biggest thing you will learn is how to justify to yourself on the way home from the race that you really didn't care about winning anyway, it was just "all about participating."

Unless you are an engine designer with a lot of two stroke knowledge, a machinist with a basement full of mills and lathes etc., a pipe and prop guy, and very patient person with lots of spare cash, these type efforts usually are better left to those who are. If the other way floats your boat, good luck. Not trying to discourage you but I have seen this and been involved myself to an extent over the last almost 40 years so I can speak with some authority on the subject.

[David Weaver]

Good Advice

At first glance the resleeving of a Yamato two cyl 250 with 350 sleeves might seem to be a good idea and a relatively inexpensive way to get involved in the 175 class, BUT the following things would need to be resolved:

Cost of resleeving from one block to the other, if you are not a machinist and have to pay to have the work done. Is the OD of the 250 sleeve and the 350 sleeve the same so as to allow a no-machining fit from one to the other and if not, what will this do to the flow in the transfer ports in the 250 block when installing the larger (in ID anyway) 350 sleeves in the 250 block?

How about carbs? Would you have to buy new ones, or would the old ones work, and then the problems of jetting correctly and coming up with pistons to replace the ones you are going to stick and burn while you are figuring it out.

Same question regards pipes. Also cost of a new bracket and braces. This will NOT be a small issue, and as one who went thru this some years back when the idea of a 175 class first was broached, and I had half of a Konig 350 GIVEN to me free of charge already assembled (Dieter Konig was going to build a 175 before his untimely death in a motorized hang glider accident) I can testify that if you don't have a dyno or a place to do a lot of testing and have access to a good gas welder and a computer program for expansion chambers, you are probably always going to be behind the performance curve. If "putting" around off plane while everybody else is racing appeals to you, this is a great way to get that experience.

Add in the cost of props for an engine that probably won't be competitive anyway because of the advances in porting/squish/expansion chamber design since the time of the parent 350 Yamato engines, and you have (IMHO) a great opportunity to spend a LOT of money and not be very competitive.

You can very easily count the number of folks that do this SUCCESSFULLY on a couple of fingers of one hand, even taking a time frame over the last 20 years. You are probably going to spend more money and run not as well as if you bit the bullet and bought a VRP, or Rossi. Add in the information already available from all those engine owners about props, pipes, tuning, etc., and unless you are a very special person that the racing is more about the engineering and testing than the actual performance on the race course, you are bound to be disappointed in the long run and spend more money and effort besides. The biggest thing you will learn is how to justify to yourself on the way home from the race that you really didn't care about winning anyway, it was just "all about participating."

Unless you are an engine designer with a lot of two stroke knowledge, a machinist with a basement full of mills and lathes etc., a pipe and prop guy, and very patient person with lots of spare cash, these type efforts usually are better left to those who are. If the other way floats your boat, good luck. Not trying to discourage you but I have seen this and been involved myself to an extent over the last almost 40 years so I can speak with some authority on the subject.

IMHO, Bill is right on. The VRP's and Rossi's enjoy a 20 year techology and development advantage. PRO is about inovation. Perhaps start with a contemporary engine and look to improve it.

[Rex Hall]

UIM has minimum weights for 125 and 175 for next year, I think 170 kilos for 125 and 180 kilos for 175. As of today, the 125 is 100 kilos for the boat and motor and 70 kilos for the driver. I am not sure how the weights for the 175 are set up.

Rex Hall

[Smitty]

The applause-meter reads zero; so much for that idea!

[PETEG]

Brian is right!!! Come race with the USTS and have some fun. My team did not deserve the first win we got at USTS and it was a great thrill. Since then we have learned from the great competitors at USTS and have learned a great deal about fast boats from our competition. Bring your 175cc and join us. I promise you will have a great time racing.
PeteG, President USTS

[iyoder]

newest and best

You do not need the latest equiptment to run up front. When I started everyone said konigs were out dated and look what I have done. Bring your oldder stuff out there is plenty of help at the races. Have fun!

[RLR]

Ike is right, hey I like the sound of that

Ike has had more fun than you can imagine, but not only on the water, but he and his Dad Bob, have vounteered week after week to help the Title Series move forward. As Pete says, come have some fun with us, it one big traveling circus, with lots of great people to give you a hand and get you on the water. I marvel every year to see someone trying to get out on the water, before the one minute gun goes off, to see 4 or 5 guys/gals from crews with a boat on the water trying to help them go beat their guys/gals brains out on the water. That to me is what makes the Titles Series what it is from David A on the east coast, to Joe and Paul on the westcoast, making it happen.

And I can tell you, Ike will be there to help you with getting it running.

Ray

[Smitty]

Well, I certainly take Mr. Van Steenwyk's point, his several well-informed points.

My notion came from my long impression that there seem to be, or used to be years ago, quite a surprisingly large minority of alky racers who did have access to a lathe, maybe a milling machine, and who generally had a pal who could weld, and that some subset of these guys got a kick out of carving on (and occasionally ruining, but so what?) their equipment. The Sixties and Seventies happened to be the great age of the DIY 2-stroke tuner/modifiers in motorcycle racing as well, and a large ugly monument could have been cast from all the piles of chips from hogged-out ports. As often as not, these creative types got beat by those who spent their time dialing in the factory set-up, but they had lots of fun, regardless. Many racers are mainly drivers, some are mainly gear-heads, and a few are both, as you've all observed. So, granted, if your first interest is winning races, a 175 Konig or Yamato project is a pointless distraction, but for the contrarian gearhead who can get the parts cheap and do most of his own work, it might be an idea.

Bill V., obviously you are one of those racers who is both a driver and a gear-head; how did that half-Konig turn out? I'd like to hear more of that story.

[bill van steenwyk]

my post, and reasons for

Smitty:

Since you are the one who asked the original question, It looks like I should have directed my reply to you by PM or e-mail, since some posters, since I put mine up, seem to think I might have discouraged potential USTS members from participating because of the points I brought out in my post. That was not my purpose or intent. As one (with my wife Eileen) who has participated in USTS racing since its inception until 2004, and PRO racing since 1968 this time around, USTS racing is all that the others have said and more.

That being said, you asked a question and I tried to answer it honestly and to the best of my ability, based on what I have experienced and seen since 1968 in PRO/ALKY racing. If some took that to mean something else than what it very plainly said, or think I had some ulterior motive, they are wrong. The post means what it said, NOTHING MORE!! I have very seldom been at a loss for words about any subject I feel strongly about, and that is the case with this subject also. If I was trying to discourage someone, there would be no doubt about my intention.

As to the gear head part, I have always been interested in the technical side of boat racing and the engines used. I have never had the machinery, or probably the ability, to do what some have done in building their own engines such as Kay Harrison, Bruce Nicholson, Mike Schmidt, Jack Kugler, and others. They had good success, BUT they are the exception, and that was my point. As I stated, if that is what floats your boat, have at it, but realize what is entailed and what you might run into along the way. As someone who has always cared deeply about our sport and most of the people who participate in it, I felt since you asked a seemingly sincere question, you were due an honest, intelligent answer. I fail to see how anyone could put any other meaning to my comments, unless they just want to argue.

If you are interested in going down that road,the 175 Konig (top half of a 350) is yours if you want it, for the frt and packing cost. You can't get started down the road to fun and frustration any cheaper than that.

I have seen, many times in the past, folks who were VERY enthused about boat racing try to get involved with worn out, cobbled together equipment, and I have also seen many of those same folks fall by the wayside because they put in all the effort at home in the basement or garage, working on equipment so they can participate in the sport. I have also seen many of the same folks, discouraged by not getting a decent boat ride, sometimes not even getting to make a start if they did get on the course when the gun fired, experience the frustration of spending a lot of time and money and accomplishing little, and then get discouraged and quit. They could have been an asset to the sport and also been having a good time for years in a family sport, but because of that bad taste in the mouth when first starting, and never really getting a good ride, got discouraged left, and never came back. There are the exceptions like Ike Yoder and a few others who make do with older equipment, that in hands other than theirs would not even get out of the pits, much less on the podium at the end of the race day, and he deserves every accolade he gets, and more besides. But he, and those like him are the exception, not the rule. and that was the point I was trying to make.

ADD: If you want to get started with a minimum of cost, there is much used equipment out there, fairly current and in decent shape, that would provide you with a much easier and less expensive way to get started than the way this post was originally started about. Also and most important, it would probably be more dependable and actually get you on the course and racing, than trying to cobble something together from 20 year old technology parts.

[Mike Schmidt]

Thanks Bill and Dave.

Guys, just want to say thanks for getting me off my butt on our 175 project. Knowing that us dumb Americans can't build motors that will compete with the store bought Italian motors is good to know. But....I like a challenge.

My son will post a couple of photos of the first one....Billet aluminum case from a TZ 250 twin out of Texas, Yamato piston port crank and Honda CR 80 cylinders. Left over parts from my Kawasaki program.

A Yamato crank is the same length as a Rossi 250 crank and only 2 mm larger in diameter. (I have a boring bar all set if any one is as dumb as me). A 350 Yamato sleeve is 54MM on the O.D. Drops right into a Rossi cylinder casting. The guys at Powerseal can now Nicasil cast iron, so we can recycle worn out 350 Yamato sleeves that are sitting on a shelf in New York.

Michael D-1

[mike_280]

175 Project.