Sutherland National Meeting Class Consolidation

[Haüenstein]

Why drive a wedge?

Check out this snippet, posted on this very site yesterday MORNING:

Ballot Item Motion made to except [sic] the Sutherland version of the consolidation of classes with an advisory committee for the rules and implementation in the year 2014. Motion-Carries
6 yes 5 no 1 abstention 12 commissioners present




APBA and NBRA are working toward the same goal. And a lot of people, in both organizations, work very hard for the sport. I think that should be commended ... rather than condemned.

Mike H.

[Blackhawkguy]

The foots in the door

Looks like Dean got his foot in the door. At least there is a commitie to be formed to try and get this adapted by 2014. How close it looks to Dean's plan by the time they get done with it is not known.

Do not give up, remember Stock Outboard in region 6 and 7 is not the same as in the other parts of the country. What makess sense here does not make the same sense the them, we are the exception not the norm of Stock Outboard racing today.

kerry

[Jack Stotts]

I see this whole operation as a parallel to our national economic situation. Too many unknowns to take a chance and move forward. Business is reluctant to hire new folks because of too many things like medical coverages, fiscal and monetary policies and taxation are uncertain. Potential racers are reluctant to jump on board because they don't know if the equipment they would purchase will still be around in a couple years. There comes a time when one needs to "stop cutting bait and start fishing". Jack

[Tomtall]

Yes!

APBA and NBRA are working toward the same goal. And a lot of people, in both organizations, work very hard for the sport. I think that should be commended ... rather than condemned.

Mike H.

Well said. How many of the doom and gloomers were in attendance at the national meeting? How many of them voiced their concerns DIRECTLY to their commissioners before the meeting? We move forward people regardless of the vote outcome.

Now that being said, who are you getting into the sport this coming season?

Yeh, I thought so.

[BP125V]

?

Looks like Dean got his foot in the door. At least there is a commitie to be formed to try and get this adapted by 2014. How close it looks to Dean's plan by the time they get done with it is not known.

Do not give up, remember Stock Outboard in region 6 and 7 is not the same as in the other parts of the country. What makess sense here does not make the same sense the them, we are the exception not the norm of Stock Outboard racing today.

kerry

Kerry,

For the most part, are not the regions outside of regions 6 & 7 running LESS Stock Outboard classes than regions 6 & 7 per race weekend? And yet they are still struggling. How does the Stock Outboard category cutting classes help those regions?

I'm not being sarcastic here, this is one area of the consolidation plan that I do not understand. If I have been misinformed concerning what Stock Outboard classes other regions race, please correct me.

thanks.

[Blackhawkguy]

OK I hate when that happens.........

Well I just lost my reply so here it goes again.

Region 6 for years has been one of the few regions that could run a stock outboard only program and break even. When you propose a solution to a problem that is obveous here, it does not always make sense to other regions who have been struggling with the issues of having enough members to just run a race. Three Rivers outboard back in the 80's ran stock and mod together. In California they have had to run Stock, OPC, Inboard or whatever they could to have enough entries to just cover the cost of a race and they have charged as much as $75.00 a class to race.

What has become a problem here has been a problem in other areas of the country for years so to them it does not look that bad. In fact it sounds like some areas are seeing a resurection in the numbers.

Their are still people upset we do not race Mark 15's and KG4's. When the motor you race now replaced these motors it was a sweeping change that needed to be done.

As far as the economic side since around 1970 there has never been a motor other than the Super-C that has not lasted at least 15 years. I do not think history shows us any new motors being obsoleted and their probably never will in the future. Buying a Stock outboard race motor seems to be a investment for at least 15 years and more like 25 if you look to the history.

Remember in a democratic system change is hard. It is possible the members from the regions that voted no expressed their concerns to their commissioners and they voted the feelings of who they represent. Thats how it is supposed to work!

Dean has a good plan and once the committee is formed and everyone gets a chance to put in their 2 cents it will most likely move foreward.

I hope Dean does not give up and keeps spreading the word and trying to work through the problems as seen by those who opose the change. The people who have doubts need to have their issues expressed and worked through.

Keep the faith.

Kerry

[Blackhawkguy]

In short Bill

Bill,

I understand your point. I thought with the exception of one class everyone was going to have a place to race their current equipment on a national level.

The reason the local class polocy was put in place was to keep those people around who found themselves unable to race their class on a national level. I do not think this has ever been used to it best advantage. We keep changing the rules to keep classes on a national level or just simply changed with wind as it came at us.

Your point is well taken but I am not sure of a solution. The Stock Outboard I left in 1995 is definatly not the Stock Outboard of today. There is alot of promise but it will depend on how the members deal with the issues. Histoy tells us sometimes we do not do very well.

Kerry

[dholt]

Here's how cutting back could help

Bill,

Your question is at the heart of the matter..."How would reducing classes help?" It's probably been asked by hundreds out there. I ask all to consider this. How is our current model a success? How is the current model working??

1. Our current model has been around for 50+ years. 2 heats/3 laps each day for each class. And if your class runs eliminations...then you may only get 1 heat. And virtually NEVER any testing time. So...for your entry fee, that's what you get. And for you several thousand dollar investment...that's what you get.

2. Clubs are forced to generate revenue by entry fee. Only way to get more entry fee is run as many classes as possible. Usually translating into a 6-8 hour race day.

3. Volunteers get burned out. Racers get burned out. The day is too long and you don't get enough water time for your investment of time and money. For those racing 1 class...imagine sitting around for 6 hours before you get your 1-2 heats. For a new guy to tolerate this is asking the impossible. And it isn't Heaven for a veteran either.

4. Look at how many newcomers who started 15 years ago are still around. Not many. Not many who started 10 years ago. The "lifers" make up the bulk of the membership. Could the above reasons be the factor driving people away?

Now...if there were FEWER classes in Stock (and Mod while we're at it) you could CHANGE the model.

You could offer MORE heats of racing per class. Imagine telling a newcomer they could get 4 heats each day instead of 1-2. Offer testing time. That all sounds pretty attractive, doesn't it? Still shorten the race day...making the day less like work and more like fun. Entry fee could be increased because you're offering more water time.

In the future...instead of spreading new drivers around 20 classes you could spread them around 10 classes. The field of boats would increase...would be much more attractive show to sell a sponsor. More exciting to watch. More of an accomplishment to win. Drivers would earn "wins" instead of inheriting them due to 3-4 boat fields.


I have been asking this question for the past couple years and yet to hear a response.


How is our current model considered a success? Why is it worth keeping?

[blueskyracer]

I would like to add that where we race we have 10-12 classes so every race day we have enough time that we can run 3 times per class with an hour of testing before the race starts. We usually start at 11 and are done by 3-4 in the afternoon.

It really does make for a great day of racing and if you run 2 classes that is six heats a day plus a little testing if necessary and lots of time left to shoot the fat and drink some beer.

[Blackhawkguy]

Just for thought

Along the line of Dana's thinking'

I went to a local snowmobile drag race last weekend sposored by the lion's club. It was a fund raiser for their club. I have a 1998 Sno-Pro I oval raced for several years. I have all kinds of helixes, wheights, extra clutches, jets yadda yadda yadda.

I spent all day Sat. testing in 10 degree weather. Sunday morning it was -28 below. I had no real capital expense into this project other than time and a 15 dollar entry fee for the first class and 10 dollar entry fee for every class after.

I ran two calsses. My total race time was 24 seconds. Three 8 second runs. That was it for alot of work and dealing with realy crappy cold. At what level do you think my fun meter was.

Kerry

[B Walker]

Dana said:

I ask all to consider this. How is our current model a success? How is the current model working??

You then attribute a long list of symptoms of problems in Stock Outboard to the confusing and redundant class structure.

1. Our current model has been around for 50+ years. 2 heats/3 laps each day for each class. And if your class runs eliminations...then you may only get 1 heat. And virtually NEVER any testing time. So...for your entry fee, that's what you get. And for you several thousand dollar investment...that's what you get.

3 laps is long enough to decide almost every race, more laps is a waste of effort, time, and energy. The theory is that class consolidation would allow more heats to be run in a day but the cost is an additional financial burden of more entry fees paid by the racer.

Curent system example: a racer under the current system gets 4 heats over 2 days for 2 entry fees in a class with 6 boats.

Post consolidation example: this same driver is now in a class with eliminations and pays 3 entry fees as we now have 3 days of racing over 2 days but is in a class with 12+ boats and only gets a guaranteed 3 elim heats. Best case scenario is 9 total heats if he qualifies every time. Again, for 3 entry fees.

But where will our newest racers fall most often in that scenario? The ones that need boat time the most? How many times will new racers come to a race, pay 3 entry fees, get 3 heats for a weekend and come back for more next race weekend?

The more entries per class the higher the probability of paying 3 entries and getting 3 heats in total for a weekend of effort. With 24 entries in a class there is only a 50% chance of getting in the final.

Consolidation of classes is no guarantee of more heats of racing except for the highest tier of racers unless a two heat elimation system is guaranteed which then extends the race day so that getting 3 days of racing over 3 days becomes impossible.

2. Clubs are forced to generate revenue by entry fee. Only way to get more entry fee is run as many classes as possible. Usually translating into a 6-8 hour race day.

Current system example: Race is held and 120 total entries over 2 days are paid with 12 classes of an average 5 boats each. No elims so a total of 24 heats are run a day. Takes 6-8 hours.

Post consolidation example: Same 120 entries for the weekend but now only 10 classes, 2 of which have elims. If they get 1 heat elims and 2 for the final it is a total of 22 heats a day. If they get double elims then it is a total of 24 heats......the same as before consolidation and zero time savings. There is either very little or no time savings in class consolidation and certainly not enough to squeeze 3 days of racing for everyone over 2 days.

(This exapmle assumes the people that ended up with duplicate rigs in the same class after consolidation found a brother/sister/friend to drive it.)

3. Volunteers get burned out. Racers get burned out. The day is too long and you don't get enough water time for your investment of time and money. For those racing 1 class...imagine sitting around for 6 hours before you get your 1-2 heats. For a new guy to tolerate this is asking the impossible. And it isn't Heaven for a veteran either.

There is none or little time savings in any consolodation proposal I have seen if a double elimination heat system is used and if it is not used then the bottom tier racers will get shortchanged.

4. Look at how many newcomers who started 15 years ago are still around. Not many. Not many who started 10 years ago. The "lifers" make up the bulk of the membership. Could the above reasons be the factor driving people away?

Nobody has left this sport because of the confusing and redundant class structure.

In the future...instead of spreading new drivers around 20 classes you could spread them around 10 classes. The field of boats would increase...would be much more attractive show to sell a sponsor. More exciting to watch. More of an accomplishment to win. Drivers would earn "wins" instead of inheriting them due to 3-4 boat fields.

Please try to put yourself in the shoes of a new racer: The field of boats would increase in the final and it would be the same veteran racers in it. These vets would have been subsidised in their effort by the entry fees paid for by the newest racers who will be watching from the beach.

Brad Walker

We dont race for sponsors.
We dont race to put on a show.
We race for ourselves.
Stock Outboard is a participation sport.

[BP125V]

elims

You bring up a very good point Brad - 1 elimination heat. Clubs need to do EVERYTHING possible to ensure that drivers get more than 1 heat of racing per entry fee if there are elims. Consolation heats, a 2 heat format for elims (like at the Nationals) or whatever need to be considered.

[Ron Hill]

Did You Get Points???

Along the line of Dana's thinking'

I went to a local snowmobile drag race last weekend sposored by the lion's club. It was a fund raiser for their club. I have a 1998 Sno-Pro I oval raced for several years. I have all kinds of helixes, wheights, extra clutches, jets yadda yadda yadda.

I spent all day Sat. testing in 10 degree weather. Sunday morning it was -28 below. I had no real capital expense into this project other than time and a 15 dollar entry fee for the first class and 10 dollar entry fee for every class after.

I ran two calsses. My total race time was 24 seconds. Three 8 second runs. That was it for alot of work and dealing with realy crappy cold. At what level do you think my fun meter was.

Kerry

I BELIEVE that one weekend should only have ONE SET OF POINTS.....In the OLD DAYS, when APBA went from January to December for points, California for sure, and I think Florida also, had some great races in November and December....Last chance points racing......Then racers in Ass Cracking cold weather states helped to change the calendar to October 31th, so then could quit racing and know they were HIGH POINTS CHAMPION by Thanksgiving...

I wrote the 15 race average proposal for APBA and SCOA, with Bill Boyes and I pushing (Maybe Ernie Dawe, too) went to two days of racing for double points.


In the OLD DAYS, people would test all day Saturday. Help new people. Loan each other props, relax, enjoy the day. Let new driver try things without an entry fee...But today's racing seems to be we've got to have POINTS ****IT...So let's get four boats out there so we can have points......The new guy gets shorted, the new guy gets screwed, but the old racers get points!!!!

I've recently bought up some old equipment.....to the person, they'd probably be racing had every race not been POINTs, POINTs, and more points...

[Affholter66]

Well said. How many of the doom and gloomers were in attendance at the national meeting? How many of them voiced their concerns DIRECTLY to their commissioners before the meeting? We move forward people regardless of the vote outcome.

Now that being said, who are you getting into the sport this coming season?

Yeh, I thought so.

Nicely said Tom

[bill boyes]

Bill, ref rule 2 (10) "The race for each class shall consist of up three (3) heats etc. Meaning a two heat elimination and a one heat final. We did this at our 2010 Western Divisionals at Oroville. Some moaning from one out of Region Commissioner but we did it anyway. The drivers loved it. Cannot do this at the Nationals though. The thing is all boats get at least two heats and the final 12 get 3 heats when eliminations are run. It is in the rule book we did it and will again when needed.