What Happened to the Super Thunderbolt “D”s??

[Dave M]

Good Grief

No wonder the stock meetings at the National Convention last the longest. A lot of red tape to get through.

I am not sure if I agree with this vision Scott is claiming stock outboard has. With D Stock being a class that is in need of serious help to keep it racing the next few years it seems anything that would help would be welcomed. But then, that is not the vision as I interpret it from remarks. At the Divisionals in Alexandria KY there were alomst not enough DSH to race evena local event and we had to talk "rig" a stocker just to have enough to race for local points..... I am not so convinced that the problem is strictly regional.

I actually entertained the idea of building a D stock engine for cheap and try to make it competitive with the current engines. I simply won't do that now because that was not the intent of the rules as I read them here. Sorry guys, that seems to be a step backward, not forward. And this represents only my opinion of what I have read here. I do not know the stock rule to the tee.

[reed28n]

What junk yard ?

I actually entertained the idea of building a D stock engine for cheap and try to make it competitive with the current engines. I simply won't do that now because that was not the intent of the rules as I read them here. Sorry guys, that seems to be a step backward, not forward. And this represents only my opinion of what I have read here. I do not know the stock rule to the tee.

So for the new guy off the street. Where do we send him to scronge these parts - to piece a motor together to compete with families that were born into the sport. How do we attract new drivers? Will the add sound something like this?

" coming to a town near you.....get to your local merc dealer and ask them if they have a 1970 something 4 cylinder something, make sure you get the one with the exhaust splitter then see if you can find one of those 55h gear cases, buy a tower, take it to a machine shop get it all fitted up, simple as one two three."

Our goal here is to hook a new guy and say buy a New Tohatsu complete.

Now, that is not perfect yet. But we have something tangible we can work with.

We have to shift our focus to attracting the new guy. It is an uphill battle that we are going constantly fight with existing racers. I think that this is an awesome sport and I would love to see people enjoy it the way we have for years to come. I just don't see how we can make that happen through a temporary band aid of old motors that are probably being scrapped everyday. There I have been exposed.

Peace

[mercguy]

the D class is............

No wonder the stock meetings at the National Convention last the longest. A lot of red tape to get through.

I am not sure if I agree with this vision Scott is claiming stock outboard has. With D Stock being a class that is in need of serious help to keep it racing the next few years it seems anything that would help would be welcomed. But then, that is not the vision as I interpret it from remarks. At the Divisionals in Alexandria KY there were alomst not enough DSH to race evena local event and we had to talk "rig" a stocker just to have enough to race for local points..... I am not so convinced that the problem is strictly regional.

I actually entertained the idea of building a D stock engine for cheap and try to make it competitive with the current engines. I simply won't do that now because that was not the intent of the rules as I read them here. Sorry guys, that seems to be a step backward, not forward. And this represents only my opinion of what I have read here. I do not know the stock rule to the tee.

going strong..............the future of the class lies with the Bass Tohatsu or Merc 44XS...........

why waste your money on a motor (SuperThunderbolt) that is not in the future plans of APBA D stock??

build all those ST 44's for mod............

[mike ross]

Last weekend at Augusta MI we had 7 D hydros and one was a 55 H and it won on Saturday. Lets get the rigs to the water and quit worring about all this other stuff. The gentlemen with the 55 H was having a blast and loved every minute of the race. We even gave him the famous victory bath being it was his first win. Mikey

[crankbearing]

solution !!!

Alan and I put in a lot of work on this together and had thought it was put to rest. Sorry Alan, I know you worked VERY hard on this and spent alot of money to get it to be a reality.

I see two issues that are not fixed. ONE you have still listed the block useable must state " Super Thunderbolt" on the side. In a previous update I made to the rules and passed on I asked this to be changed to

Fully-Jewelled Super Thunderbolt as well because there is only one year of block that states the previous and that is a MARK 58 only all the other 44 state the latter in the window on the block.

SECOND if there is a major concern still with the splitter issues as I think in the rules written and rewritten, we made it quite easy to understand. Then drill and tap a 3/8 hole into the exhaust cavity in the flat of the block to the left side of the waterjacket cover so that plug may be removed and using the boroscope can be inspected by simply removing that plug to see if a wrong splitter is being used in that motor. Very simple in theory.

It is my understanding as well that you have 5 guys in the delaware region working on building Super Thunderbolt DSR's as they have the stuff to put them together. I think that would be a welcome acceptance to that class.

Regards,

[pops67g]

Can't argue with Ross.

Boats on the water beats the alternative every time. If a guy with a 55H can win today maybe the other guys ought to do their homework so it doesn't happen again. If he still wins then pat him on the back and say Well Done.

[Art K]

D stock racing

You know I thought stock racing was supposed to have a simple set of rules that most people could understand. I have been around race boats for over 50 years. I don`t think I understand what the heck is going on. We purchased a new Tohatsu this past winter our first venture into stock racing. We always raced mods or alkys in the past. Raced one time with the Tohatsu at a NBRA race this season. Planning on going to Rochelle this weekend to see if we can be competitive with the Mercs. Fully expect we will be disqualified for some rule we are not familiar with. Guys you really need to make things a lot simpler than they are now if you want to attract new racers. Heck if there are people who want to play with the old Mercs more power to them.
Art K

[reed28n]

Simple! I respectfully disagree.

SECOND if there is a major concern still with the splitter issues as I think in the rules written and rewritten, we made it quite easy to understand. Then drill and tap a 3/8 hole into the exhaust cavity in the flat of the block to the left side of the waterjacket cover so that plug may be removed and using the boroscope can be inspected by simply removing that plug to see if a wrong splitter is being used in that motor. Very simple in theory.

What the hell is a boroscope? wrong splitter?

I applaud your efforts to push these motors through but what is new about a 58h where the f do you get one?

We have heard all of these guys that will come racing......is that only if this motor change is passed they way you and Alan wrote it? The motor is still legal what it has been and that guy that won this weekend with the 55h was legal.

Art K is right. Simplifiy.

[crankbearing]

Scott,

There is usually a boroscope at most mod inspections made to inspect the internals without having to tear a motor down. I may have the wrong term. It is needle like magnifier that you can insert into the block and inspect internally through a view finder and the exahust splitter well that would be the plate between the block and the exahust cover whih was the initial reason for the rewrite of the rules.

I really do not think we want to get into the where do I find parts topic. It is not even a remote issue of being able to assemble a Mark 58 500, 450, 500-4, etc.. any day of the week you could buy 10 or more of these powerheads off Ebay in parts or complete and igntion is 350$ from Rapair for electronic or 15$ for points and a condenser from sierra.

We have at usual 10 of these running in our races in there own class with no problems every race. If they do not have enough then we combine them with DSH and they are scored dsh points for that heat, if they run on there own then they are considered D Classic Hydro because we want the boats to compete.

I have no vested interest in this being approved or not I was asked my opinion as the tech chair I gave it to you. yes I have pistons they were built for DCH drivers in Canada and the river racers on the west coast. I still have some left two years later that life. I thought we were trying to build and save a sport from all the replies both public and private there are many mixed emotions in this, but really have you asked any D drivers what there opinions are?

Consider this my resignation as the Merc tech committee chair.

[alanaker]

I know that...

the SORC and BOD consist of good guys. I’ve met a lot of these people.
I’ve never lost sight of that. I do think it was a good decision and insightful of the SORC to start up the SuperThunderbolt D rules a few years back

There are many roads into the racing arena, not just one or two….If you asked 20 different racers exactly how they got into boat racing you might get 20 different answers. There are 5 APBA legal D motors now, not 2 What’s wrong with more choice? The less competitive models will naturally fade away without forcing anything.


Superthunderbolt D motors are not for everybody…It’s sort of an enthusiasts way into the D class. For myself, I enjoy the challenge of collecting these and piecing one together.

Its been asked recently if we want to be introducing more old parts to stock outboarding. In the case of the SuperThunderbolt, there’s been a prolific # probably millions of 44s made over the years from 1958 up into 1990whatever. Certainly one of the worlds longest production runs of the same basic engine. These are spread out all over the continent. There might be several thousand superthunderbolt fishing motors out there for every one Yamato ever imported into the U.S. (someone else can put better figures on this) Why not utilize this vast resource of powerheads? Where is the downside?

Everybody can see that the days when you could go into a dealership and buy a racing outboard are long gone. Was there ever really a store you could go to buy a racing hydro or runabout? Weren’t they pretty much built to order with rare exception or are we kidding ourselves?


D parity in case the unlikely is necessary, not BOD action on motor technical details. Superthunderbolts are not the odds on favorite! The BOD/Stock outboard commission could have increased the minimum SuperThunderbolt weight 10# then reviewed this later if they were really terrified of being upended. My experience and observations with these motors has not shown this to be necessary however.


Northeast DSH participation is way up,at least up to now, first time in years. I don’t know how many of the 50 DSH drivers total nationally last year were superthunderbolts. Just have somewhat of a pulse on the northeast U.S.

[sam]

Was there ever really a store you could go to buy a racing hydro or runabout? Weren’t they pretty much built to order with rare exception or are we kidding ourselves?

Yes, for a few years you actually could buy a 20H or 55H and a Swift hydro directly from any Merc dealer.

Alan is right about the 44 being the most produced outboard ever; it may out number the Yamatos 10,000 to 1. Parts will be available new and used forever; like an echo of PRO's C Service class multiplied by 50,000 or more.

As far as introducing more old parts keeping motors that would otherwise die off ... hasn't the Stock class allowed the use of replacement parts made by Selewach and Runne for the old Hot Rods? How is this different? Consistency reinforces an argument, inconsistency weakens it.

I seriously doubt that any of these inspection details makes any difference on the race course; if any mismatch combination of parts for old 44's had a chance of being a peer to a 44XS I think it would already be known.

To explain the microscopic scope of the details involved consider it this way; all the haggling and back and forth would bear more weight on the race course if we were talking about carburator nozzle depth correctness on Tillotson KA's for a particular matching serial number, but that side of the motor is open for tuning ... what is wrong with allowing parts that happen to bolt together (on purpose or by accident) being allowed? (As long as alteration (machine work of any kind) is completely prohibited.) It would be much easier to inspect if all the inspector has to look for is bear, clean or altered metal.

If I'm not mistaken, all this affects this year is whether an old 44 can be a legal finisher at Whitney Point and get points. If you are really in it for the fun, go have fun ... let them inspect the motors after the race and smile all the way back to your trailer with your DQ'ed box of parts, knowing that you had fun. If it isn't fun, you shouldn't be doing it.

[reed28n]

Parity by weight and or height Restrictions

Alan you have agreed with the path that we are taking. We are including the Super Thunderbolt at the driver's request and we have made it public that we are monitoring it to make sure that it is not the dominant motor.

Everyone keeps saying this motor cannot compete......there are motor builders that can modify a super thunderbolt, if we are not careful, to be faster than what we have now.

The bottom line is we need to simplify the class structure to increase its appeal.

We all want more racers.

[reed28n]

Mercury is not coming to the table with these parts.

"As far as introducing more old parts keeping motors that would otherwise die off ... hasn't the Stock class allowed the use of replacement parts made by Selewach and Runne for the old Hot Rods? How is this different? Consistency reinforces an argument, inconsistency weakens it."

This is in fact a different issue because Selewach bought the company. He is Hot Rod now.

If the parts that Alan and Dave Scott were proposing were direct replacement parts with just a different part number we would not be having this conversation. Our hope is to satisfy the introduction of the additional parts without a competitive advantage over legal parts previously approved.

[sam]

there are motor builders that can modify a super thunderbolt, if we are not careful, to be faster than what we have now.

While this is true, it is not true that modifications can be made that are not easily detectable ... and they are outside of the exhaust divider & tuner issues that are keeping the super thunderbolt out this year

If the parts that Alan and Dave Scott were proposing were direct replacement parts with just a different part number we would not be having this conversation. Our hope is to satisfy the introduction of the additional parts without a competitive advantage over legal parts previously approved.

They are direct original parts, not replacements ... maybe that is the issue here ... miscommunication ... Alan and Dave are just specifying which ones belong together ... as I said earlier ... its as if we were spec'ing a particular legal carb nozzle to a particular legal carb. The scope of the detail involved is microscopic.

[Dave M]

Sorry

Did not mean to open a can of worms, I am just a lowly Mod guy.

Never knew there could be so much debate to lower the cost of racing, whether it would be Stock, Mod or Pro. Let's face it, the average person whom is attracted to our sport does not have 20G laying around to toss at all new equipment. There is no financing plan at 15% APR for 10 years to make it more affordable.

I am glad that the DSH class is growing, it seems to be pretty region oriented in its growth though, and those regions don't travel as much. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out.

The one and only thing that keeps bugging me is all the political BS that goes on just to get something approved. We need less politics and more racing. This stands true for any category. This is my opinion only. Stop over analyzing stuff and race. You have a parity committe for DSH already, use it.

Hell, it ain't even winter yet.... might as well go buy stock in popcorn.